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Help and Support Links
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Mainstream
Bibliography
Start here...
...proceed here.
- God is Not Great (Hitchens)
- The God Delusion (Dawkins)
- The End of Faith (Harris)
- Why I Am Not a Christian (Russell)
- Letter to a Christian Nation (Harris)
Proselytize Religion
From Reddit
As a community with an interest in providing the best resources to its members, the following wiki links are provided as historical reference until we can establish our own.
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Matthew was literally talking about jesus? I'm curious if you can expand on that.
Is your quote from jesus meant to reference Trump changing the law?
I'm not commenting on trump or even modern politics. I'm commenting on the lack of fidelity the new testament authors had in quoting what we now call The Old Testament, and specifically on Jesus saying that the law was going to exist as long as this world existed, and that nothing would be removed from from it.
Mathew 5:17-20
Emphasis mine.
The new testament is positively replete with alterations, exemptions, and outright rejections of the Law. Many of them are even what I would consider good (for example, many of the changes are to be less legalistic, because they've gotten to be a pain in the ass). Or at least, pragmatic. but that's not really pertinent here. For example, Mary Magdalene, the law required her stoning. Pure and simple, right? Adulteresses get stoned. Other sins were atoned for in other ways ( sacrifice, ritual cleansing, etc.) but jesus says, 'yeah, fuck that.'
Or like Paul's pragmatism concerning converting gentiles and chopping off parts of their dicks. Yeah.
Mark 7, though comes expressly to mind,
verse 18 and 19 are the relevant bits here:
Again, emphasis mine.
the context is that the pharisees are calling out the disciples for not washing their hands. (nasty. just saying. Guys. wash your hands.) Also, 7-9, Jesus is citing a prophecy by Isiah:
In which Jesus is quoting Isaiah29:13:
but, um. if you check the context in 29, the city Ariel is clearly Jerusalem... and clearly the 'prophecy' is a warning to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. It wasn't even a messianic prophecy. (in that it's pointing to signs of who might be the Messiah.) and anyone reading it in the historical context (like to whomever Isaiah was speaking to...) would have understood it as a "get back in line or else" kinda deal.
As for the prophecies in Mathew; the author literally doesn't know what he's talking about. for example, Mathew 1:22-2.
The author is citing Isaiah 7. . Specifically citing verse 14...
Okay. so I let the footnote tag in for 'virgin' because it's actually kinda important here. We'll get to that in a second.
First though: here's the more-full context. (you can read the full chapter, I linked it, if you want.) Starting with verse 10:
Okay. So. The context: Isaiah is sent to Ahaz to console him, and Isaiah tells Ahaz to name a sign, and god will do that sign to prove that he'll be safe. Ahaz doesn't (because, like, he ain't stupid.) So, Isaiah names a sign- this kid whose suppsoed to be born, named Immanuel. Before that kid reaches certain life milestones- specifically, the age of legal/religious responsibility. So all this Immanuel guy is supposed to do is exist. By the time he reaches whatever age they viewed children as being responsible for their actions at; the next part of the prophecy will come true: The land of those two kings will be abandoned.
this prophecy wouldn't be very reassuring if Jesus was that boy... seeing as how Ahaz was like more than 700 years before Jesus was alive... Details, right?
Alright now back to this whole 'virgin' thing. English translations generally use the word 'virgin' here, because that's the way they translated the hebrew bible into greek. Don't ask me why. the hebrew word for 'virgin' is "בְּתוּלָה" transliterated as "betulah", which is also seen elsewhere (Like Rebecca was described as a virgin, not a young woman, as an example.
Ahaz certainly would have understood it to mean 'a young woman', as would basically anyone who was around at the time Isaiah gave the prophecy. Context is incredibly important and words have meanings.
For another example of context, Mathew 2 uses Micah 5 to explain why jesus was supposedly born in Bethlehem. The reality is that if Jesus is supposed to be the Messiah, then he'll have to come from Bethlehem. But prophecy in Micah 5 was a message of hope and divine protection to a people facing the Assyrians coming in; and in the context of assholish kings. (well, as painted by the scriptures. They just maybe got away from the Law of Moses and weren't as obedient as they were supposed to be.)
Imagine if some asshole showed up in france just ahead of the Nazis invasion and said, "you know what? don't be too worried. Cuz like 700 years from now, some jackass is gonna be born in Arles and he's gonna deal with it." Not exactly the most... relieving of messages.
Most likely the ruler mentioned in Micah 5 was already alive at the time and already starting to do their thing. particularly because most prophecies are written after the events happened (or just before them). Probably Hezekiah, as a way to bolster Hezekiah's perceived authority. (which fits, because Hezekiah was known for being a reformer, particularly bringing people back to religious observance. Details.)
Okay, I like your explanation for why jesus isn't from the old prophecies. But your first point about jesus saying he won't change the law, but then changed the law; I disagree. In your own quote he specifically mentions the commandments, there aren't any commandments about people being stoned.
Yeah. Christian’s usually do.
They tend to only read the parts they like rather than the entire law as laid out in Leviticus and Deuteronomy.
The law is more than just 10 commandments. But even if it weren’t, “You shall not commit adultery” is pretty self explanatory.
Dueterony 22:20-21 is pretty clear:
It goes on to have rules for just about every variation. The only time that a woman who has sex out of wedlock is not to be out to death is if she was raped.
I'm not a christian, but when Jesus said he's not changing the law he was specifically referring to the commandments. I'm basing that information on the quote you provided. I think his whole point was that those rules weren't from god, and therefore weren't laws. The only laws from god were his 10 commandments. Judgment/punishment comes from god, not people.
Where does it that? The “Law” with the big-L there is The Law of Moses.
It’s mat 5. I dropped it up there.
the authors of the New Testament didn’t have basic cultural understandings that Jesus or the Pharisees would have. They made a mistake. Oops.
So now you have people changing the meaning of words to explain how their scripture isn’t a hodgepodge of contradictory statements.
Statements that were written by Greek-speaking people whose knowledge of Jewish scripture comes from translated works and interpreted with broad influence from Greek philosophy.
writing about an illiterate carpenter in Galilee and Jerusalem, who grew up speaking Aramaic and may have learned Hebrew.
And to be perfectly clear…. “Thou shalt not commit adultery” is one of the commandments. It’s the seventh. So even if you’re right and that’s what Jesus was talking about… he still changed the law.
Wait, when did Jesus say adultery is okay? He just stopped someone from being stoned
The law of Moses demands she be stoned, right?
Like it didn’t require they not be without sin to enact punishment.
I should apologize- Magdalene was never identified as the adulteress. Some things still hold over from a fundie upbringing.