this post was submitted on 08 Jul 2025
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I think part of the problem is that 5e is so pervasive and baked into the "people who play TTRPGs" population that you need to sell them on why 5e isn't good before you can get them to consider why your alternative is good.
Frankly, I'm a White Wolf die-hard. I love Exalted. I love Werewolf. I love Mage. I tolerate Vampire. But as soon as I show someone a set of d10s and try to talk them out of the idea of "Leveling" they get scared and run back to the system they're familiar with. I also have a special place in my heart for Rollmaster/Hackmaster/Palladium and the endless reams of % charts for every conceivable thing. And then there's Mechwarrior... who doesn't love DMing a game where each model on the board has to track it's heat exhaust per round? But by god! The setting is so fucking cool! (Yes, I know about Lancer).
I will freely admit that these systems aren't necessarily "better" than 5e (or the d20 super-system generally speaking). But they all have their own charms. The trick is that selling some fresh new face on that glorious story climax in which three different Traditions of Magi harmonize their foci and thereby metaphorically harmonize fundamental concepts of society is hard to do on its face. By contrast, complaining about the generic grind of a dice-rolling dungeon crawl is pretty straightforward and easy.
If you lead with "Thing you like is actually bad", their immediate response will be to disagree with you and start defending the thing they like. And if you want someone to listen to your arguments, rather than just try to poke holes in them, you must avoid putting them on the defensive.
To get through to people, find common ground and build off that. "If you like FEATURE in GAME, you'll probably love SIMILAR FEATURE in OTHER GAME because..." is something that's actually going to get someone interested, rather than start a pointless argument :)
Why would you assume the critiques are of things they like? 5e has plenty of widely recognized flaws.
Often, simply catering to people's priors means never leaving their comfort zone.
Sute, but the thing they like is "D&D", and D&D isn't just a game anymore, it's an identity signifier. Pointing people to other games before establishing yourself as firmly not attacking their identity is going to trigger a fight.
Which is part of the problem. Like talking to someone who only drinks Coca-Cola about trying a new bag of tea you brought over.
If you've wedded yourself so deeply to the brand that you feel attacked whenever someone levels a critique, you're probably not mature enough to be at my table.
Ok, but these discussions aren't happening at you're table. "Well, fuck them then" isn't exactly helpful.
Isn't what I said. But if that's what you've heard, you're illustrating my point.
It's not about identity as much as it's a very poor way to try to convince someone.
Don't base your line of argument on a statement you know the other person will likely disagree with.
For example "You should play Pathfinder because DnD sucks", holds no weight to people who don't think that DnD sucks. In fact if they happen to like DnD, it undermines your argument, because if you disagree about DnD, aren't you also likely to disagree about Pathfinder?