History Memes

Also Mongols: "We should have a religious debate contest"

This first face-to-face exchange on religious doctrines between East and West took place a few days later, on May 30, 1254, the eve of Pentecost. On this day, Rubruck represented Christianity, engaging in debate with Nestorians, Saracens, and Taoists within the church. Möngke appointed three arbitrators—a Christian, a Saracen, and a Taoist—and prohibited any claim that another’s view was inconsistent with God, banning insults and noisy disturbances.

During the debate, they discussed several major issues concerning religious beliefs. A core issue was the nature of God, specifically whether belief should be monotheistic or polytheistic. Rubruck emphasized the existence of one perfect, omnipotent God. However, the Buddhists spoke of various deities below the highest God. Taoists stated, “Only fools believe in one God, but wise men acknowledge many. In your country, are there not many kings? Is Möngke Khan not the greatest of kings? So it is with the divine, as different places have different gods.” Despite the potentially subversive rationale of using Möngke as a stand-in for the multitude of gods, Rubruck remained steadfast, insisting on the singular supremacy of God: “There is no other god besides Him who is almighty.”

This also touched upon another core issue, whether the world is dualistic with good and evil or monistic. Rubruck criticized the Buddhist dualism of good and evil, asserting that influenced by Manichaeism, Taoists believed in dual principles of good and evil, which was incorrect. Buddhists questioned why, if God is all-powerful, did He create “evil.” Rubruck countered, “That’s not true. Evil is not created by God. All existing things are good.”

Ultimately, he queried the Buddhists whether their gods were omnipotent. Taoists initially avoided answering but reportedly under pressure from the arbitrators, conceded none of their gods were omnipotent. Rubruck concluded, “Then you have no god capable of rescuing you in dire situations because there may arise events beyond their capabilities. Furthermore, it’s impossible to serve two masters, so how can you serve numerous gods both in heaven and on earth?”

No Buddhist record exists, but according to Rubruck, Christianity seemed to triumph in the debate. Buddhists reportedly became speechless while Nestorians and Saracens ceased arguing, acknowledging the sole God of Christianity. After the debate, Nestorians and Saracens joined in chorus, while Taoists remained silent, and everyone passionately drank (“The Mission of William of Rubruck”, pages 294-302).

This is Rubruck’s account. The debate’s outcome might not have been as unanimous as he described. The following day, Möngke summoned Rubruck and the other religious representatives for a dialogue. In discussing his beliefs, Möngke stated, “We Mongols believe in one God who controls our lives and deaths, and we sincerely trust him.” Though Rubruck sensed he could interpret this as referring to God and asserted “it should be so, for without His grace, nothing is possible,” Möngke conveyed his view: “But as God has given us five different fingers, He has also given people different paths. God gave you the Bible, yet you Christians do not adhere to it. Is there a record in the Bible mandating people to criticize each other for faults?”

Möngke implied no religion, including Christianity, should exclude other beliefs, and criticized Christians for being overly self-assured. He remarked, “God therefore gave you the Bible, which you do not follow. He gave us diviners, whose words we abide by, and we live peacefully.” Möngke’s position holds credibility.

https://www.appiainstitute.org/articles/asia/debate-in-front-of-mongke-khan-the-first-face-to-face-discussion-of-doctrines-between-eastern-and-western-religions/

And eventually when you have Christian kings mandating the religion, the rest tend to fall in line.

It's a show called Umbrella Academy on Netflix. It was fairly popular, although I can't say I enjoyed it enough to watch more than a few episodes.

Adding to what the other folk have said: it is a very stylized show In that way it can be hit or miss.

I loved it but haven't watched the final season yet. Not ready for it to really be over.