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I think their point is that at some point there will have to be some form of peace negotiations
If you get less value from using the money for weapons than for using it as leverage in negotiations, then it's a bad trade-off
Ah yes, because negotiations for peace with Russia worked so well for Ukraine before...
And now the USA are tagging in so they can also get the spoils.
I don't understand the point you're trying to make here, are you arguing that we should aim to keep the war going indefinitely? Because the only way a war ends without a negotiated settlement is with the total dissolution of one of the sides in the war. I don't see Ukraine fully annexing Russia any time soon, frankly.
The war does need to end sometime, even if that time isn't now, and creating a peace treaty that's self-enforcing is the only way that works. If using that money as leverage (e.g. the funds are gradually unlocked as the treaty phases progress) makes a lasting peace viable that otherwise wouldn't be, then it's an option worth considering.
Do you know what happened last time Ukraine had an agreement with Russia and USA?
Why would they make the same mistake?
Why are you pressing for that as it is it a valid option? Why are you ignoring what Russia and the USA did not so long ago? Are you of the opinion that trump can bring peace to Ukraine quickly?
Why are you so opposed to giving free money to Ukraine?
Well yes, I am aware that Russia has violated numerous treaties. But I'm not arguing for the treaties to be the same, not even for a peace treaty to happen now. Nor am I saying we shouldn't give some portion of that money to Ukraine.
I feel like I'm being pretty clear that I don't think anything close to this, no? But your questions seem to be on the basis that I do.
The point I am actually making is that at some point in the future there will be some form of peace negotiations to end the war. That's not coming from a Trump-esque "peace now because I say so" angle, but from a "every conflict ends in some form of settlement eventually" angle. The fact that this money would act as significant leverage in that scenario means that this isn't just magic free money, but a tradeoff to be made.
That doesn't mean it's the wrong tradeoff, necessarily, just that to actually decide whether or not that's the case, you do need to consider that it is one.
My point is that history shows it's not really wise to negotiate, or go for treaties or agreements with Russia.
Whilst strategically it would be good to make the war stop it would only be a temporary and remedial solution not really solving the root cause of the problem.
So why do it?
Well because every war ends with a peace treaty. Ignoring that fact now and making it harder to do so in the future just because a peace treaty isn't viable now.
All I'm arguing for is making decisions while aware of all the factors? I don't understand what you're disagreeing with, really
I'm not sure you're just being stubborn or really believe that peace treaty crap. War ends one one of the sides is forced into submission and surrender.
Yet you wanna call that a peace treaty like it's some agreement reached at any time that is not short of annihilating the other guys. At least recently. But, throughout history, many wars ended with the actual annihilation of the other side so now you know what I'm disagreeing with.
If not, what I'm disagreeing with for this case is diplomacy and negotiations. Fuck that and fuck Russia and the USA. Use the money to let Ukraine go berserk.
66% of wars end in some form of compromise (source), and it's highly unlikely there's a scenario where Ukraine causes the total collapse of the Russian government, or that the fighting just naturally dies down.
It's all well and good to say "no peace with the bad guys" but that's a position you're taking because you don't want to negotiate with Russia, not because doing so necessarily achieves the best outcome for Ukraine. "They're mean so I won't do any form of diplomacy" is, frankly, dogshit statecraft.
If you want to actually understand how wars do, and specifically the Ukraine war could actually end, I strongly recommend reading that CSIS report I referenced.
Mate, why are you insisting in a verifiably failed strategy? It has been done. It has not worked.
This is one of the cases where compromises will not work.
Why the fuck are you ignoring that? Why? Why are you pressing on "talks" with Russia? You fucking sound like trump. What is your interest? Do you think that selling their sovereignty is acceptable? Because that's what the USA and Russia want.
Fuck off! We're never going to agree so you might as well just leave it.
Jesus Christ man. All I said was "it's possible there will be some form of peace treaty someday" and you're acting like I shat in your cereal.
Stop being an arse.
Edit: and don't call people mate before ranting at them. I'm not your friend.
What if there is great value in repelling foreign invaders from your country? Ukraine needs all the funds, especially after a certain shithole country has withdrawn financial aid.
I'm not saying it's necessarily the wrong choice to give the money to Ukraine, just pointing out that there is a tradeoff to be made.