this post was submitted on 06 Aug 2025
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Today I Learned

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Weird place. I think I have shopped there maybe once or twice but don’t even remember this being a thing.

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[–] jjjalljs@ttrpg.network 1 points 1 day ago (8 children)

I will say, doing things the hard way is virtuous.

This is not true in all cases. If you want to go from New York to Maine, traveling South until you loop around and come to Maine from the north isn't somehow more virtuous.

[–] JustinTheGM@ttrpg.network 1 points 1 day ago (6 children)

There's a distinct difference between doing something "the hard way" and adding unnecessary complications. "The hard way" is just a faster way of saying "without all the modern conveniences." New York to Maine the hard way would be walking rather than driving.

The virtue in doing something the hard way is that it gives you a clearer look at the details. Walking from New York to Maine would give you a much more intimate understanding of the terrain than driving or flying.

[–] jjjalljs@ttrpg.network 3 points 1 day ago (5 children)

That's not inherently "virtuous".

I don't think we have a shared definition of virtuous, but I think it often depends on context. Taking longer to do something such that a deadline is missed and people suffer isn't desirable.

I don't think "the hard way is more virtuous" is defensible without adding so many exceptions and clarifications it's not saying anything at all.

[–] JustinTheGM@ttrpg.network 1 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

I'm actually really curious to hear your definition of virtuous! For me, it's the 'has an overall positive effect' definition, not the wishy-washy 'moral' one.

[–] jjjalljs@ttrpg.network 1 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

If I was going to answer from the hip I'd probably say something something similar. Taking "virtuous" to mean "good". Virtuous then to me means something like "benefitting without harming others, or minimizing unavoidable harm"

Typically I'd say riding a bike to your friend's place is more virtuous than taking a car. Not because it's harder, but because taking a car has many harms. Burning non renewable fuel and other pollution, encouraging a car-first culture, taking up extra space, extra wear on infrastructure, etc.

Picking up litter I think is virtuous. Making the area nicer. It's not less virtuous to do it with a broom than your bare hands.

Maybe virtuous also can include "taking on hardship so other's don't have to". Cleaning up litter. Letting someone else sit down on the subway. That kind of stuff. Those aren't virtuous acts because they're hard. They're virtuous because they help people. It would be hard to put a bunch of painted pumpkins on the street, but that's not benefitting anyone, so I wouldn't say it's virtuous.

Virtue is probably detracted if you're doing it for gain. If I'm getting paid to pick up litter, it's less impressive.

Anyway. Writing this on my phone while walking. Kind of a rambling answer, but hopefully it supports my position of "it's not difficulty alone that elevates an act to virtuous"

[–] JustinTheGM@ttrpg.network 2 points 14 hours ago

I'd say we're fully in agreement then. I certainly didn't mean to imply that adding difficulty alone was somehow automatically virtuous. It's maybe better to say there's virtue in doing some things the hard way.

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