this post was submitted on 20 Oct 2025
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[–] Skyrmir@lemmy.world 45 points 1 day ago (94 children)

I mean, it's really both. Hamas is batshit crazy, they're just far less militarily powerful.

There are no good guys in the Israel Palestine fight.

[–] despite_velasquez@lemmy.world 19 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Secular Palestinian Political Organisations existed, Bibi supported Hamas specifically to weaken the secular flanks, because it’s way easier to justify a genocide against Hamas

[–] Tollana1234567@lemmy.today 1 points 19 hours ago

thats what i read too, and he mostly advocated funding to hamas too.

[–] mrdown@lemmy.world -1 points 23 hours ago (2 children)

The secular Fatah ended up being the one collaborating with Israel

[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 6 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago) (1 children)

Fatah made a deal with Israel and it stuck to it. Fatah didn't "collaborate", it tried to achieve peace and a Palestinian state. It is the only player in the conflict that plays within the parameters set out by the UN.

Fatah is a truly tragic organization in this whole drama. Before you accuse Fatah of anything, you must first condemn Israel and the international community for betraying the shit out of them.

[–] mrdown@lemmy.world -4 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago) (2 children)

Israel didn't respect the Oslo accords so PA shouldn't keep respecting it either.

I condemn Israel first, the Arab traitors and western countries Israel supporters seconds and the occupation collaborators the PA last.

[–] couldhavebeenyou@lemmy.zip 0 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

And where exactly do you place Hamas with their bombing campaign that led to Netanyahu, who wanted to end Olso, being elected to replace Peres, who wanted to enact it?

[–] mrdown@lemmy.world -1 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

Israel want the whole land since it's creation so stop blaming everything on Hamas . Hamas reply to occupation brutality that's all and occupier force always committed more crimes against any act of resistance . The plo respected the term, Israel didn't because they do not want peace. If you accept Israel excuses you are not better than any Zionist

After the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine - Ben Gurion

Partition might be only a temporary arrangement for the next twenty to twenty-five years - Chaim Weizmann

There will be no Palestinian state—this land is ours - Netenyahu on September 11, 2025

[–] couldhavebeenyou@lemmy.zip 2 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

You seem to struggle with the concept that Israel (and Palestine) consists of more than one person or faction and that there are factions that want peace and factions that want war. Hamas made sure the Israeli faction that wanted peace lost power in '96

[–] mrdown@lemmy.world 0 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

You seem to not understand that treaties and deals do not become null when a prime minister or president change . The accords was between Israel as a state and the PLO. Netanyahu represent the state of Israel, Hamas is not a member of the PLO. So Israel can't claim Hamas actions make the accords null and no matter who is wrong illegal settlements are never justified. Genocide is never justified either

[–] couldhavebeenyou@lemmy.zip 1 points 8 hours ago (2 children)

Yeah I'm sure Netanyahu is really impressed with you being upset that he did exactly what he promised to do if he got elected... And apparently not caring about Hamas enabling him to do so at the same time

[–] mrdown@lemmy.world 0 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

Netanyahu love that you shift the blame to Palestinians and use his excuses as valid reasons for the state of Israel continue occupation, continue stealing wesbtbankers land and allow the settler terrorists to attack Palestinian civilians

[–] couldhavebeenyou@lemmy.zip 0 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

Well I'm not saying, as you seem to hinge your argument on, that Netanyahu is blameless

I mean, he ran his election campaign on it! lol

I'm saying Hamas should not be excused for helping him win it.

[–] mrdown@lemmy.world 1 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

Here we go again you keep talking about Netanyahu which we all know he is a terrible war criminal. Yet you can't admit that Israel always wanted the whole land . I showed you that Shimon Perez who was his opponent was as bad as Netanyahu. I showed you Israeli leaders all over the decades defending occupation. I will repeat them again

after the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine - The terrorist and first prime minister of Israel Ben Gurion

partition might be only a temporary arrangement for the next twenty to twenty-five years - Chaim Weizmann

The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.” -  Menachem Begin

https://www.972mag.com/yitzhak-rabin-oslo-accords-aoc/

https://www.palquest.org/en/historictext/24965/yitzhaq-rabin%E2%80%99s-address-knesset-after-israeli-palestinian-agreement

We would like this to be an entity which is less than a state, and which will independently run the lives of the Palestinians under its authority. The borders of the State of Israel, during the permanent solution, will be beyond the lines which existed before the Six Day War. We will not return to the 4 June 1967 lines. Yitzhak Rabin

There is Israeli leaders that are less honest than others that's all. All of them do not want a Palestinian state

[–] couldhavebeenyou@lemmy.zip 0 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

Do you think Arafat wanted an Israeli state?

[–] mrdown@lemmy.world 1 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago) (1 children)

So now you even deny that Arafat wanted an Israeli state. Have some shame please

https://2001-2009.state.gov/p/nea/rls/22579.htm

The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security. - Yasser Arafat

In return Rabin recognized the PLO but not the Palestinian state. So we know very well that it is Israel who never ever recognized the other side based on 67 border

Since you keep ignoring evidence I have to copy again the same proofs

https://www.palquest.org/en/historictext/24965/yitzhaq-rabin%E2%80%99s-address-knesset-after-israeli-palestinian-agreement

We would like this to be an entity which is less than a state, and which will independently run the lives of the Palestinians under its authority. The borders of the State of Israel, during the permanent solution, will be beyond the lines which existed before the Six Day War. We will not return to the 4 June 1967 lines. Yitzhak Rabin

[–] couldhavebeenyou@lemmy.zip 0 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

I'm not asking whether Arafat agreed to Oslo - we know he did. I'm asking whether you think he was keeping his fingers crossed behind his back when he did. You seem to think this was the case for Rabin and Perez, so why don't you extend the same courtesy to Arafat?

I think it would be very interesting for you to read up on Netanyahu's criticism of the Oslo Accords from back when he was an opposition leader running against Perez. You'll be happily surprised to find out he was using the exact same arguments as you are now, claiming the other side could never be trusted.

[–] mrdown@lemmy.world 1 points 3 hours ago

I'm not asking whether Arafat agreed to Oslo

You asked if Arafat recognized the state of Israel and he did and I provided you the evidence. I gave you ststements from Israeli leaders from all eras and ignored them

You'll be happily surprised to find out he was using the exact same arguments as you are now, claiming the other side could never be trusted.

You are the one who keep blaming palestinian for the maintenance of the occupation like Netenyahu claim and all Israel leaders refused to give Palestinians a full fledged state with full sovereignty

[–] mrdown@lemmy.world 0 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

There we go with people who think Netanyahu is the only problem and not the Zionist ideology that radicalized Israelis and is the reason why Israel is maintaining occupation . Netanyahu winning has nothing to do with Hamas.

Answer this simple question. Do you think Israel want to end occupation if Hamas is destroyed?

[–] couldhavebeenyou@lemmy.zip 0 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (1 children)

Netanyahu winning has nothing to do with Hamas. Answer this simple question. Do you think Israel want to end occupation if Hamas is destroyed?

You really need to read up on the political situation in Israel in the mid-'90s

[–] mrdown@lemmy.world 1 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

You need to read who was the main opponent against Netenyahu. He was one of the early Israeli leaders that supported the building of settlements

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20160928-shimon-peres-israeli-war-criminal-whose-victims-the-west-ignored

It is pretty clear that you hide behind Hamas and Netenyahu to defend Israel which never wanted peace based on their leaders themselves

[–] couldhavebeenyou@lemmy.zip 0 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

Why do you think Rabin and Peres agreed to the Oslo Accords?

If you believe an Israeli can never be trusted to uphold a peace agreement, how do you suggest this ever gets resolved?

[–] mrdown@lemmy.world 1 points 6 hours ago

Why do you think Rabin and Peres agreed to the Oslo Accords?

They are hypocrites and their war crimes proves it

If you believe an Israeli can never be trusted to uphold a peace agreement, how do you suggest this ever gets resolved?

Israel should become an isolated state heavily sanctioned, nobody should give a single dime or arm to Israel so Israel is forced to discuss in good faith. Then Israel should dismantle all his settlements over the time if the two state solution is agreed about or implement a one state solution with equal rights. Whatever there is a one state or a two state and army is necessary to fight anybody who refuse peace whatever it is Israelis or Palestinians

I know you will say that it's is not realistic but right now there is not a single short term realistic easy solution because Israel refuse peace, the West and even Arab countries are allowing Israel to do whatever they want, Palestinians will keep resisting sometimes according the international laws and someone just unjustifiable retaliation so we end up in the same status quo that only serve Israel

[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 3 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

Easy to pontificate to the Palestinians what they should or shouldn't do.

[–] mrdown@lemmy.world 1 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago) (1 children)

Support for Palestinian factions: support for Hamas declines by 4-points while support for Fatah remains unchanged. The decline in support for Hamas came from the West Bank. Support for Fatah is higher in the Gaza Strip than in the West Bank and support for Hamas is also higher in the Gaza Strip than in the West Bank. In both areas, support for Hamas is higher than the support for Fatah.

Support for Palestinian factions: support for Hamas declines by 4-points while support for Fatah remains unchanged. The decline in support for Hamas came from the West Bank. Support for Fatah is higher in the Gaza Strip than in the West Bank and support for Hamas is also higher in the Gaza Strip than in the West Bank. In both areas, support for Hamas is higher than the support for Fatah.

Support for Palestinian leaders: If presidential elections were held between three candidates, Marwan Barghouti of Fatah, Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah, and Khalid Mishal of Hamas, Barghouti would receive 50% of the vote, followed by Khalid Mishal and Abbas.

The release of Marwan Barghouti is supported by Hamas but not by the Palestinian Authority

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/war-gaza-palestinian-authority-oppose-marwan-barghouti-release-negotiations#%3A%7E%3Atext=The+source+added+that+senior%2Cof+PA+President+Mahmoud+Abbas.

Demand for the resignation of president Abbas: About 1 in 5 Palestinians are satisfied with the performance of **President Abbas **and 81% want him to resign.

When asked whether it supports or opposes the disarmament of Hamas in the Gaza Strip in order to stop the war on the Gaza Strip, an overwhelming majority (85% in the West Bank and 64% in the Gaza Strip) said it is opposed to that; only 18% support it.

[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 1 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago) (1 children)

Marwan Barghouti is a member of Fatah.

The JCPA that you cite is a conservative Israeli think tank...

Edit: You changed the citation.

Sure Abbas doesn't want him out, but Fatah is not Abbas and Abbas is not Fatah. Fatah is a mass organization.

[–] mrdown@lemmy.world 2 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

Barghouti is one of the few good people left in Fatah and the PA refuse to release him. Fatah abandoned him . I also updated my link with a pro Palestine source instead. The JCPA still a proof that Israel use the PA while insulting it at the same time . Collaborators like Abass are not respected neither by Palestinians and neither by Israeli

[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 2 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

I think we are not too divergent in our preferences here. We both support Barghouti. Abbas is a 90 year old mummy, one foot in the grave. Not that relevant much longer.

[–] mrdown@lemmy.world 2 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago)

We both support Barghouti

And Fatah do not support his release while Hamas does

Abbas is a 90 year old mummy, one foot in the grave. Not that relevant much longer.

He is going to be either replaced by another Puppet or Israel may decide to officially annexing the West Bank and dissolving the Palestinian Authority altogether

[–] despite_velasquez@lemmy.world 0 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

Mb, I should’ve mentioned “covertly” supporting Hamas.

[–] mrdown@lemmy.world 2 points 22 hours ago

The Qatari money was used for infrastructure projects. Israel as the occupying force it the one who allow money to go even to the west bank of the PA yet weirdly the rhetoric is only used to against Hamas . Hamas rely of smuggling for it's military wing and arms.

How can you convince anybody that Hamas works for Israel against the "good" Palestinian authority who is collaborating for Israeli security while not protecting a single Palestinian from the settlers?

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