this post was submitted on 01 Mar 2025
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[–] jaschen@lemm.ee 39 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (4 children)

Taiwanese family living in Taiwan and frequent Japan prior to having kids and after having kids.

Most people are quick to point out the gruesome work culture, but honestly, that is just a small part of the total issue.

1- Japanese people culturally hate outsiders. So their immigration system is setup to almost never give a foreigner citizenship.

2- Japanese people culturally have a mindset that if you pop one out, it's you and only you that share that burden. That means that if you're on a train and struggling with a crying toddler that is tired of standing, nobody and I mean nobody will let you have their seat. Half the patrons will turn up their volume on their headset and the other half with mean mug/glare at you for annoying them. You wanna know the worst part. This mindset transcends to the kid's grandparents. That's right. The grandparents will not lift a finger to help you.

Edit: I also want to add that the burden is not even on the father, outside of the finances. The father does not need to help with any baby duties. I have met many Japanese men that has kids that has never even changed a diaper. Why the fuck would a Japanese woman want to have kids?

3- The government is not making it easy to help the families. Do you have a sleeping kid in a stroller? Well, you better hold the kid if you're using mass transit. Elevators are an afterthought. So once you get off a train, you either have to walk an extreme distance to get to an elevator or in some instances there isn't even an elevator at all. In some rare occasion there is a designated elevator for strollers and wheel chair access, it's jammed packed with people who is able-bodied and can take the escalator, all of which won't exit the elevator to let people with wheel chairs or strollers in.

I went to Osaka Universal studios and ask to rent a stroller. The guy didn't speak English at all. We eventually used my phone to translate and he asked me my kids age. I said 5. He said, is today his birthday? I said no. He turned 5 a few weeks ago. He then poceeds to deny me from renting a stroller. I reasoned with him telling him my kid is having major jet lag and needs a place to sleep right now. He told me to just go back to the hotel to sleep because he wasn't going to rent a stroller to me.

I love Japan and the Japanese people, but honestly they all hate kids.

[–] pineapplelover@lemm.ee 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

After all this you still love Japan and Japanese people?

[–] jaschen@lemm.ee 5 points 23 hours ago

Yes absolutely. The Japanese has a heavy influence in Taiwan culture. They ruled Taiwan for 50 years. My grandparents only spoke Japanese and Taiwanese when I was growing up here.

That is why there is so much love for the Japanese people. Our cultures are pretty aligned.

What we different is how we view kids in society. In Taiwan, when my wife was visably pregnant, people from all walks of life would give up their seat for her. Even before she was visably pregnant, the government gives you a ribbon to wear and people will let you go first on an elevator and congratulate you.

The government has designated parking spots(marked in pink lines) specifically for pregnant and anyone with kids 6 and under. All larger malls are required to have a clean breastfeeding/pumping room with some malls going the extra mile and having free childcare while you pump.

The people in Taiwan view children as everyone children and everyone has an obligation to bare that burden.

While there are major upsides, the downsides is that people have opinions on how to parent your kids with some parenting for you.

I was in Kaohsiung at a beach and my 3 year old son was taking a stick and hitting it against rocks and the sand. A bunch of grandma's felt it was too unsafe for my son to be walking around with a stick in his hand and took it out of my kid's hands and told me that my kid could lose an eye. I know the gesture comes from a good place, but man. Mind your own business.

[–] ipkpjersi@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

As someone who has always heard how nice Japanese people are, I'm surprised they hate kids that much.

[–] jaschen@lemm.ee 3 points 1 day ago

They are courteous and very respectful. It's built into the culture and even their language. One simple sentence like hello, how are you have multiple ways of saying it depending on who you're addressing. Addressing incorrectly is very disrespectful. So the culture overly respectful.

[–] Techranger@infosec.pub 5 points 1 day ago

This was very insightful, thank you for sharing!

[–] Gewoonmoi@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

All people are wired to 'hate' outsiders. Countries are forced to open up in order to keep economic growth going. The US needs to import people in order to keep the growth going on. The same with Western Europe. Japan basically took the economic stagnation and said no to opening itself up. I wonder whether that was mostly a top-down sort of decision or not.

[–] MehBlah@lemmy.world 13 points 1 day ago (1 children)

What if the population is stabilizing? Unlimited growth is death. Anyone who thinks differently hasn't looked at how life works. That a population that undergoes a huge increase crashes due to starvation and disease. This is observable from bacteria to humans. It could be Japan is entering a stable period where needs and resources are predictable and known. Sounds like a higher standard of living to me. The downside is the huge geriatric population will need more and more resources until that situation becomes part of the new stable norm.

Stagnant is how a capitalist mindset sees it. They can't stand that since their scam depends on unlimited growth. So of course any take on this from the stand point of greed would think its a terrible thing for a population to shrink to fit its resources not keep growing to allow ever increasing profits.

[–] boonhet@lemm.ee 1 points 3 hours ago

The downside is the huge geriatric population will need more and more resources until that situation becomes part of the new stable norm.

That exactly is the problem. When half the population is too old to work, who's going to be providing for them all? Someone still needs to produce stuff.

It could be Japan is entering a stable period where needs and resources are predictable and known. Sounds like a higher standard of living to me.

Good luck predicting human needs and behaviour.

[–] vane@lemmy.world 16 points 1 day ago

Management issues... I know what can help... Introduce Agile.

[–] Shou@lemmy.world 28 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I'm sure artificially lowering female med student's grades to increase drop-outs amoung women will help with the financial stability and job security needed to raise a child!

[–] Ledericas@lemm.ee 12 points 1 day ago (1 children)

There's also no support for women with children there, career wise

[–] Shou@lemmy.world 9 points 1 day ago

South Korea allows women to be fired if they 1) want, or 2) have children.

People now realise that kids are a lot of hard work and fucking expensive.....and that yearly skiing holidays are fun.

[–] rekabis@programming.dev 67 points 1 day ago (6 children)

In the context of Capitalism, sure, Japan is in trouble.

But then again, any system that demands infinite growth within a finite system has a biological parallel… in cancer. Yes, capitalism is economic cancer.

Japan has a bright future in front of it, if it can successfully pioneer an effective degrowth system that prioritizes the lives of people over Paraiste-Class profits.

[–] Echofox@lemmy.ca 8 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Japans GDP has been almost flat since the mid 90s, they are not following the west's """infinite""" growth. Not that I'm saying capitalism isn't part of the problem, it absolutely is, just saying it isn't the entire story.

[–] ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca 12 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Outside of capitalism it is hard to function below replacement level because the young people have to take care of the elderly

[–] MisterScruffy@lemmy.ml 18 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Young people would have time to take care of the elderly if they weren't forced to work 60+ hour weeks consistently

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[–] SCmSTR@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 1 day ago

Oh no, having to spend time with my family oh nooo /s

If rent weren't so damn high and you didn't have such a squeeze on every moment of your life to make as much money too survive, spending time and supporting each other efficiently maybe wouldn't be a problem.

Values are defined by our parents? Is it a caste system? Is extended family more or less efficient? What is the goal: sustainability, B R E E D I N G, vacations, wealth compared to others, power over others, power over ourselves? Etc....

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[–] ItsJannnneee@lemmy.blahaj.zone 31 points 1 day ago (4 children)

I love Japan, but I will say it has its issues that often get overlooked. Workplace culture is horrific in Japan and it contributes to their high suicide rates. There's even a word in Japanese that specifically refers to a person dying from being overworked. I know friends who immigrated to Japan, only to regret it because they saw for themselves just how harsh the workplace culture was. Japanese people have no time for their family. Something must change or this problem is going to get worse but given it's a highly conservative culture I'm not sure it's going to see changes anytime soon.

[–] TinMod@lemmy.world 12 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Jokes on you

America has higher rates of overwork and suicide!

[–] markko@lemmy.world 15 points 1 day ago

Yeah but it's not exactly fair to compare the US to a developed country

[–] FalseDiamond@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It has two actually, karoshi and karojisatsu, death from being overworked and suicide from being overworked. Etimologically speaking, that gives you some idea of how big the problem is, kind of like the old adage about eskimos or inuits having six words for "snow".

[–] Frostbeard@lemmy.world 2 points 20 hours ago

Known I am a bit obtuse, or perhaps litteral, but I am Norwegian and have more words for snow. Think English have more words for snow. Think texture. Powder, sleet, sugary, slush, crusty, hoar, rime.

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[–] Gewoonmoi@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Isn't Tokyo to be one of the most affordable major, developed cities in the world? The article suggests that Japanese homes are exceptionally expensive.

[–] MehBlah@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

The tradition in japan is to level a house and build a new one. It was explained to me that very few have multigenerational single family dwellings. This would increase cost.

[–] anticurrent@sh.itjust.works 82 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

No one has time for family in Japan

When I watch yt videos about people leaving the workplace at 10pm, I wonder how suicide rate isn't way higher

[–] MonkeMischief@lemmy.today 49 points 1 day ago (3 children)

This. I think there's so much to love about Japan, especially the cultural leaning towards doing everything with respect, dignity, and skill.

But the megacorpos definitely won in exploiting that, and the general social pressure revolving around workplace culture there is genuinely terrifying to me.

As a US person, our corporate-brainwash culture is awful too, but I'm glad we're seeing bigger working class pushes to tell our employers "Go kick rocks. My family is more important."

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[–] JcbAzPx@lemmy.world 25 points 1 day ago (1 children)

There's a reason so much anime these days is a salaryman dying on the job and reincarnating into a fantasy world.

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[–] technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 129 points 2 days ago (26 children)

You can tell capitalism is super efficient and sustainable by how it totally collapses without fresh babies to sacrifice.

[–] Rinox@feddit.it 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Thing is, we don't really know what's the reason for the current worldwide trend in much, much lower natality rate. We've observed in rich countries and poor countries, religious and atheist countries, capitalist and communist countries (both USSR and PRC, who have had very different economic systems), in countries with no safety nets but also in countries with large social programs, in western countries, but also in eastern countries.

The only thing I can think of these days is education level. Is it possible that education is inversely correlated with natality rates? Or maybe women in the workforce. I'm not arguing for either point, I'm just thinking about what the cause of a world-wide issue might be, because it's happening everywhere and seemingly without any clear common cause.

[–] DrSlippyNips@eviltoast.org 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

There's plenty of research out there that shows educating women leads to reduced rates of teenage pregnancy and total number of children. Like its pretty damn solid evidence that educating women helps them make informed family planning decisions.

I think a bigger problem is increasing infertility rates and how many people need to use IVF to conceive in the first place. Something worldwide is disrupting our hormones and affecting our ability to reproduce. Even if someone had everything they needed and wanted to support a child, they might not physically be able to create one or carry a pregnancy to term.

[–] Fluke@lemm.ee 4 points 1 day ago

Nothing to do with the plastics and their additives building up in our bodies that act on the endocrine system, no sir.

[–] DarrinBrunner@lemmy.world 35 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Which is why, in the U.S., the rich are turning back abortion rights and access to birth control, and gutting our public education. They could, instead, work to build a country where people felt safe, and supported--healthcare, jobs with decent wages, education, etc.--but the filthy rich are psychopaths who care only about themselves, and will do nothing that costs them money, power, and control. Instead, they'll GLADLY watch the people (people they depend, incidentally, for what good is power and control, if there's no one to wield it over?) suffer at great levels in attempts to achieve their goals.

It takes a lot of poor people to make one filthy rich person.

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[–] mechoman444@lemmy.world 12 points 1 day ago (7 children)

As an American (or at least a non Japanese native) if my boss came up to me yelling and swearing in my face I would punch him out cold.

Actually if more Japanese did this I think things would improve at the office.

[–] SolidShake@lemmy.world 8 points 1 day ago

So you'd want to go to jail for a few months (several weeks at least) over someone yelling at you?

Shit I hope you don't get married or have a girlfriend or kids.

[–] peaceful_world_view@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

No you wouldn't, lol. You need your job for health care.

[–] maplebar@lemmy.world 1 points 20 hours ago

Jokes on you, I don't have healthcare.

[–] Echofox@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 day ago

Japanese are very against violence, and incidentally it's the safest first world country. And the work culture has been improving in the last decade or so - though not nearly fast enough.

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[–] hellerphant@lemmy.cafe 68 points 2 days ago (5 children)

I live and work in Japan, and it definitely is not a very condusive environment for younger Japanese people to have children. My wife and I are both foreigners, and we are in out late 30's and just had our first. The country has some really great benefits and support services for having children, but we definitely would not be able to do this if we worked for Japanese companies, and with the Japanese work mentality.

While it IS getting better, work being the central pillar of life and the expectations from the older generations are still very much a thing. The long hours of paper pushing, the culture of promotion based on age and time served rather than innovation and hard work takes a toll on people. If you are not living in the office in your 20s to show your dedication, you are looked down upon, at least accoridng to my Japanese friends.

Immigration could help fix some of this. Japan is a desireable, largely affordable country, that is safe when it comes to raising children. Living here as a foreigner though has specific challenges, and your job prospects are pretty poor unless you are lucky, and access to housing and just general living can be challenging, even if you can speak Japanese.

I just got a new job in Kyoto, and I currently live in Tokyo. I would say around 40% of the houses we applied to look at would not even let us see the properties because we are foreigners. That's 100% legal and totally ok to say here, and I take that in stride. In Australia (where I am from), they would either just tell you to piss off, or show you the property knowing you don't have a chance, so at least they are upfront about it here I guess. Getting a credit card is a massive ordeal, which you kinda need here because debit cards are increasingly hard to find, and they don't even work for all bills and systems, and getting a bank account ... it all just snowballs.

Also anything outside of the major cities is kinda dead. I love it, but living and thriving there in places that have more space that would probably promote having big families, is nearly impossible, or at least impossibly boring. This is not unique to Japan, Australia is largely the same outside of the main cities.

Not sure what the fix is. But annecdotally I see these articles all the time, and yet there are kids and younger families always around, so not sure if it is as serious as they are saying, or more media hype?

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[–] 0101100101@programming.dev 109 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (18 children)

This problem is not isolated to Japan. Countries all across the world are facing the same issue and have been for a number of years.

Create a shitty, miserable, society with no rights or support, and people do not want to bring children into it.... who'd guess?

The flannel has been wrung dry to the detriment of the working class; there is no where to go, no more water to squeeze from them. This is global society / capitalism falling apart.

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