this post was submitted on 17 May 2025
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Anarchism and Social Ecology

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Anarchism is a social and political theory and practice that works for a free society without domination and hierarchy.

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Social Ecology, developed from green anarchism, is the idea that our ecological problems have their ultimate roots in our social problems. This is because the domination of nature and our ecology by humanity has its ultimate roots in the domination humanity by humans. Therefore, the solutions to our ecological problems are found by addressing our social and ecological problems simultaneously.

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is one of the most common responses I get when I talk to people (usually liberals) about horizontal power structures. It comes down to some version of "Well, that sounds nice, but what about the bad actors?" I think the logic that follows from that fact is backwards. The standard response to this issue is to build vertical power structures. To appoint a ruling class that can supposedly "manage" the bad actors. But this ignores the obvious: vertical power structures are magnets for narcissists. They don’t neutralize those people. They empower them. They give them legitimacy and insulation from consequences. They concentrate power precisely where it’s most dangerous. Horizontal societies have always had ways of handling antisocial behavior. (Highly recommend Hierarchy in the Forest: The Evolution of Egalitarian Behavior by Christopher Boehm. He studied hundreds of forager societies, overall done amazing work.) Exile, public shaming, revocable leadership, and distributed decision-making all worked and often worked better than what we do now. Pre-civilized societies didn’t let power-hungry individuals take over. They stopped them. We used to know how to deal with bad actors. The idea of a "power vacuum" only makes sense if you believe power must be held at the top. If you diffuse power horizontally, there is no vacuum to fill. There’s just shared responsibility. That may feel unfamiliar, but it’s not impossible. We’ve done it before. Most of human history was built on it. The real question isn't whether bad actors exist. It's how we choose to deal with them. Do we build systems that make it harder for them to dominate others, or ones that practically roll out the red carpet? I think this opens up a more useful conversation.

What if we started seriously discussing tactics for dealing with domination-seeking behavior?

What mechanisms help us identify and isolate that kind of behavior without reproducing the same old coercive structures?

How do we build systems that are resilient to sabotage without falling into authoritarian logic?

I’d love to hear your guys’ thoughts.

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[–] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 7 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

Are there examples of stable horizontal power structures beyond ~1000 people?

[–] whotookkarl@lemmy.world 2 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

Some examples of large scale cooperation without authority or hierarchy are Bitcoin users/miners, sci-hub, historic communities in Spain and eastern Europe and French communes, modern autonomous zones in several countries like Mexico and France where law enforcement will not go.

Another idea is that even in a place where authority is centralized under a hierarchy of power, that power only exists temporarily when it is enforced and anarchy rules apply until the power is enforced, i.e. laws of any system only matter when they are exercised. Anywhere considered wilderness or frequently autonomous without law enforcement access would fit this category.

[–] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 2 points 3 hours ago

Good examples, especially that last idea. I will say Bitcoin mining certainly doesn't count though, there's no non-hierarchical cooperation since everything is enforced by the rules of the system they're using. Possible attacks that work despite that system, eg. a majority consensus attack, have been tried on blockchains when they might work.

[–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 6 points 8 hours ago

Exile and public shaming

How do you enforce exile and ensure that it is just? Because any cultural majority is going to pick on a minority even and especially without any distant government. The history of progress has been using a distant government (that can be impartial to local prejudice) to force majorities to accept minorities.

Eisenhower sending the 101st Airborne to protect black children is the only reason Arkansas desegregated.

And bad actors do not care about public shaming.

[–] keepthepace@slrpnk.net 4 points 7 hours ago

Over the past years, reading more about the dark triad/quadriad, I am becoming more and more convinced that authoritarianism is the political expression of narcissism and that it is 100% of the explanation, that there is nothing more to it. Want to fight authoritarianism? Stop narcissist. It is not a matter of ideology, of left or right, of reformist vs revolutionary, it is just a matter of psychological profile. Stop the narcissist, that's all.

How do we build systems that are resilient to sabotage without falling into authoritarian logic?

I had a eye-opening moment with this videp, whose title ("Can 100 people self-organize without a leader") is actually misleading, as it (IMHO) failed to demonstrate what it wanted to test, but demonstrated something much more interesting. The task given to 100 people was too simple to require multiple people (a "hack" they forbade has shown that one person was enough to do the full task) yet, a hierarchy "naturally" emerged. Even though the sample population is biased towards people who would not be very hierarchical.

My main takeaway was that an organization that does not want a hierarchy does not only need to make it possible to self-organize, but needs to actively "weed out" hierarchies. That's hard, I don't know of any examples of it.

[–] applemao@lemmy.world 8 points 9 hours ago (2 children)

I had basically this exactly same question about how can open source software be safe if just anyone can make it. It was basically the same...sure, you can't totally trust that people are vetting FOSS for malware..but can you trust big companies to NOT put malware and Spyware in our software? I sure as hell don't. Seems to be a Good analogy when discussing this type of thing.

[–] Zexks@lemmy.world 1 points 8 hours ago (2 children)

I dont trust either to not put malware in. I trust that more people are watching and paying attention to big company software than any of your FOSS offerings.

[–] applemao@lemmy.world 3 points 4 hours ago

You're basically describing "we've reviewed ourselves and found nothing wrong!" I.e., Microsoft.

[–] millie@slrpnk.net 7 points 8 hours ago

How would that be the case if the source code isn't readily available? FOSS software is less susceptible to surveillance and bad actors in general because anyone can typically go look at the source code. If there's something shady, it's much easier to find it when the entire open source community has access. With proprietary software it may be possible to get some of the code, but it's not made readily available to a community of people who are about to vett its security.

[–] BackgrndNoize@lemmy.world 1 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Can you describe what an horizontal power structure is?

[–] banan67@slrpnk.net 4 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

I'd describe it as a social relationship that develops and maintains social structures for equitable distribution of management power.

[–] BackgrndNoize@lemmy.world -4 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

Sounds like a needlessly complicated way to say everyone just be nice to each other. And yeah it's a good message but I don't see a world in which that's gonna happen in my lifetime. I'd rater society moves towards a UBI model with free or subsidized Healthcare, so you don't have to work at a job like your life depends on it, don't like the dick heads at company A, interview and get a job at some other company B, till you find a bunch of people you can tolerate

[–] banan67@slrpnk.net 6 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

"Sounds like a needlessly complicated way to say everyone just be nice to each other."

I mean if that's your takeaway, I don't see a need to argue whether horizontal power structures are "complicated" or not. I'm trying to describe something more specific than just "being nice". It's about building structures that intentionally prevent concentrations of power and give people collective control over the systems that affect them. That's a whole lot different than just hoping people are kind.

As for UBI and healthcare. Yeah! I’d rather live in that world too than the one we’re in now. But even those things don’t challenge the underlying dynamic: the few deciding for the many. Switching jobs still means your livelihood is tied to bosses and market whims. A horizontal structure isn’t about individual escape routes.

[–] BackgrndNoize@lemmy.world -2 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

So describe this structure, all you have said is just wish fulfillment word salad backed by nothing, it's like someone saying I want world peace, sure so do I, but wishing for something isn't gonna make it happen, you need implementation details, ideas are worthless without execution

[–] banan67@slrpnk.net 4 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago)

Look man, if you’re genuinely interested in what horizontal structures or non-coercive coordination can look like, there’s plenty of research out there. I’d encourage digging into that.

I’m not here to spoonfeed a blueprint for an entire global society. The point was to ask questions about how to quell narcissistic people and keep them from gaining power and influence, not pretend to have all the answers.

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