this post was submitted on 01 Sep 2025
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[–] Coldus12@reddthat.com 7 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

To put the quotes into perspective: They are from Imre Kertész, a writer who lived through ww II. Some of his most famous works are detailing his experiences from the holocaust. Of course he'd say he is happier seeing the star of david on a tank than on his concentration camp uniform. That doesn't mean he'd agree with what Israel is doing currently.

I don't feel it fair to say things like "genocide or be genocided is a really bad mindset" after reading this quote, as this is clearly not about that. Its about having the means to protect yourself. I'm fairly certain there isnt any "lets genocide everyone else" behind it....

"Are those the only 2 options? Pretty bleak worldview.." Well what do you think, why wuld someone who survived a genocide think that having the means to protect themselves would be better than being genocided?

[–] spujb@lemmy.cafe 3 points 2 days ago

nah. sure, it might be called “understandable,” just as any cycle of violence has a predictable, “understandable” tendency to repeat. that doesn’t make it acceptable, though.

this quote isn’t from 1946. a quick search shows that israeli forces first used tanks extensively around 1973. this situates Kertész’s remarks not just in response to the Holocaust, but in the context of over two decades of the Nakba, displacement, destruction, occupation, and the early stages of apartheid against 1.4 million Palestinians.

i don’t see evidence that Kertész was a zealous zionist, but this quote—given the atrocity lurking behind the words—is definitely worthy of interrogation and critique. that kind of questioning is part of universal healing, understanding, and growth.

[–] Genius@lemmy.zip 44 points 3 days ago (3 children)

We used to have swastikas on tanks. Now everyone hates swastikas. If they keep putting the star of David on tanks, people are gonna hate that one too

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[–] Eq0@literature.cafe 136 points 4 days ago (6 children)

“The only way to not be exterminated is to exterminate”… chilling

[–] carotte@lemmy.blahaj.zone 91 points 4 days ago

"if we want to survive as a people, we must exterminate them, or else they will exterminate us"

a common excuse for genocide, as well as Literally Nazi Propaganda

[–] Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works 68 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Literally what the Nazis said, btw

[–] LadyMeow@lemmy.blahaj.zone 49 points 3 days ago

Turns out fascism is the same no matter who’s perpetrating. :/

[–] JayDee@lemmy.sdf.org 37 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

This is essentially the Zionist stance.

It started with a view that 'in order for Jews to escape persecution, an ethnostate for the Jewish faith must be established'. During this time it was still in contention within the movement on where Zion should be established, but it's also noteable that independant zionist groups were buying land in Palestine for establishing Zion at the same time. This was during the time that Palestinians (and Arabs within the Ottoman empire in general) were helping the British with destabilizing the Ottoman empire under the agreement that these resistance groups would be given their land back from the Ottomans.

Then the Balfour Declaration occurred in 1917 which promised British support in making Palestine a safehaven for Jews, and shortly after the promise of giving Palestinians their land was reevaluated.

As tensions and conflict arose between the well-funded Zionist collective growing in Palestine and the Palestinian forces who wanted the Zionist project out of Palestine, a new tone ended up showing up in Zionist literature. A noteable essay, 'The Iron Wall' by Ze'ev Jabotinsky communicates that shift fairly well.

Zionist colonisation must either stop, or else proceed regardless of the native population. Which means that it can proceed and develop only under the protection of a power that is independent of the native population – behind an iron wall, which the native population cannot breach.

Essentially Ze'ev concludes in his essay that the Zionist project will fail unless it takes on a fully colonialist design. This was also just after Winston Churchill prohibited Zionists from settling on the East side of the Jordan River in 1923.

These are mostly snippets of the whole history, but it is essentially the trajectory we've followed since, from what I've read.

[–] Coldus12@reddthat.com 2 points 2 days ago

But this is not what that quote is saying.... Do you think the person who the quote is from (who survived the holocaust - who btw died in 2016) would be okay wirh another genocide? The quote is about having the means to protect yourself, not to do whats been done to you....

[–] RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz 5 points 3 days ago

I was thinking it probably means that "the only way for us to prevent Holocaust ever happening again is strong defence" not so much that "we need to roll tanks into Gaza" type of thing

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[–] ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world 36 points 3 days ago (2 children)

IDK, but it shouldn't be "Genocide or be gencided".

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bs false dichotomy, as IDF are wearing that sign in the concentration camps they made to kill Palestinians.

[–] SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone 91 points 4 days ago (4 children)

Black and white thinking hurts everybody, always.

[–] FerretyFever0@fedia.io 48 points 4 days ago (2 children)

Everybody, always. There's no other options, I swear!

[–] Rusty@lemmy.ca 5 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

[–] FundMECFS@anarchist.nexus 6 points 3 days ago

Obi Wan is a sith confirmed

[–] spujb@lemmy.cafe 15 points 3 days ago

sometimes a sith deals in generalities

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[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 68 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I'm glad we're all agreed that putting religious symbols on war machines is some weirdo theofash shit, Europe.

[–] spujb@lemmy.cafe 35 points 3 days ago (9 children)

will always hold my hot take that Christianity’s greatest marketing-optics failure was that one time Constantine put the cross symbol on his shield

idk if he was the first one to hit that vibe but the trend it set off is one of humanity’s greatest blights

[–] AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 14 points 3 days ago (4 children)

I maintain it was John the Baptist, who was an Apocalyptic Jew, convincing The Christ that the Apocalypse was definitely going to happen within the next century or two. Despite the fact that Apocalyptic Jews has been expecting the end of the world for almost 3000 years at that point.

[–] svcg@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 points 3 days ago

To be fair to John the Baptist, Second Temple Judaism did end soon after, so maybe that might be worth some bonus points.

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[–] Maxxie@piefed.blahaj.zone 24 points 3 days ago (2 children)

'Would you rather be a face being stomped by a boot or a boot stomping in a face'

I'd rather be neither though

[–] Quadhammer@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago

I'd rather boot scoot and boogie

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[–] Genius@lemmy.zip 20 points 3 days ago (7 children)

Muslims didn't do the holocaust. That was Romans. Romans have been persecuting Jews for so long it's the plot of the Bible.

[–] spujb@lemmy.cafe 23 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

pisses me off so bad when people are like “the jews and the muslims have been fighting for centuries 🥺” bitch NO ur thinking of the “christian” europeans

[–] Typotyper@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)
[–] spujb@lemmy.cafe 3 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

yep

Jerome Chanes,[57] Pinson, Rosenblatt,[58] Mark R. Cohen, Norman Stillman, Uri Avnery, M. Klien, and Bernard Lewis all argue that antisemitism did not emerge in the Muslim world until modern times, because in their view, it was rare in pre-modern Islam.

emphasis mine, in comparison to

Antisemitic Christian rhetoric and the resulting antipathy towards Jews date back to early Christianity, resembling pagan anti-Jewish attitudes that were reinforced by the belief that Jews are responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus. Christians imposed ever-increasing anti-Jewish measures over the ensuing centuries, including acts of ostracism, humiliation, expropriation, violence, and murder—measures which culminated in the Holocaust.[1]: 21 [2]: 169 [3] Antisemitism in Christianity

in sum, antisemitism in islam certainly exists, but the idea that it’s been always prevalent and some kind of eternal blood feud is easily dismissed, or at the very least must be understood to be fractional to the endemic and widespread nature of antisemitism in christianity.

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[–] josefo@leminal.space 36 points 3 days ago (18 children)

Oppressed often fantasizes with becoming the oppressor. Growing out of that desire is true humanity.

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Better than seeing it on the guard of the camp.

[–] abbotsbury@lemmy.world 23 points 3 days ago (1 children)

defensive ethnic cleansing

[–] spujb@lemmy.cafe 30 points 3 days ago

people often forget that “self defense” narratives like this was hitler’s excuse for institutionalizing antisemitism. he literally fed the flames of the racist narrative that jewish people were to blame for germany’s economic woes in order to get support.

like this isn’t godwins law this is literally what hitler did

israel probably has concentration camp uniforms ready to go too so...

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