lalo

As I've said in the above comment, hand pollination is not the only alternative. Fixing this problem is a bridge we'll cross when most people are on board with veganism.

Lower density only means lower production of the usable land remains the same. Which would not be the case if the world became vegan: https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets

Thanks for conceding. Now to your new point: once the majority of people are vegan, we can focus on those systems that can be improved. Currently the majority does not even care about animal exploitation, so there's very little value in trying to change systems that don't depend on animal exploitation.

Those two counter examples that I provided aren't all possibilities to replace open pollination. Surely experts in the field can come up with better solutions once this problem actually becomes a worry in the minds of the majority.

Oh honey, I have no idea

Do those crops depend on transportation of pollinators? To me it seems like they don't.

By your own admission, there are natural pollinators. We can also manually pollinate them, which reinforces my point that systems that *contain* exploitation should be improved.

Males are still killed at 1 day old.

Domesticated chickens were bred to lay about 1 egg a day when their wild counterpart lay about 1 egg per month. That's a huge toll on their body.

You seem to care and go out of your way to avoid needless suffering. Fortunately it's easy to stop supporting animal exploitation.

Animal manure as fertilizer in farming. We can use fertilizers that don't depend on animals to be made.

Cows need to be impregnated by introducing an arm in their anus and holding their cervix so they can introduce a rod with semen in their uterus.

Male cows and chickens are useless to the industry so they usually get killed soon after birth.

Chickens usually are kept in cages the size of an A4 paper, cows also usually are very badly treated in order to be milked. Check out https://3minutes.wtf/ so you can see that even what the industry calls the "best animal treatment" is still very inhumane.

It's a common viewpoint among vegans that systems that depend on animal exploitation should be abolished. On the other hand, systems that contain animal exploitation should be improved.

I'll give two examples with human animals so it can be clear: Slavery? Should be abolished. People getting ran over and killed by cars? We should improve that.

I thought that chocolate brand only had vegan dark chocolate, so cool to see that they found a milk substitute! Will try to find that cookies variation on the market.

I agree that veganism is about the animals, but why do we care about them? Is it not their consciousness that make them morally significant?

I see no distinction between conscious beings, be them from this world of not, carbon-made or not.

Btw I'm not trying to create AI-ganism or anything like that. My purpose with this post was to help non vegans that care about this problem make the same connection with the animals they exploit.

It's not about feeling pain, is about their will to live.

If the argument is only about pain/suffering, then 'ethical' meat becomes a thing and people would still ignore the being's will to live.