this post was submitted on 22 Jun 2025
712 points (98.5% liked)
World News
36596 readers
624 users here now
News from around the world!
Rules:
-
Please only post links to actual news sources, no tabloid sites, etc
-
No NSFW content
-
No hate speech, bigotry, propaganda, etc
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
When Bush got the US into a war in the middle east, he at least did it after a terrorist attack on the US (which had nothing to do with Iraq, but he was able to fudge that part), and as a result of the stupidity of Americans, he had a 60+% approval rating at the time.
Trump didn't even manage a false flag or anything, as a result, a lot of conservatives are pissed off about this. Probably not enough to crack the MAGA coalition, but every little bit chipped away from it helps. With margins in the senate and house so close, it's actually possible that he could be stopped by congress and the US doesn't become a failed state, instead merely becoming an illiberal democracy.
But, what I wonder is if this will actually win him any converts from the Democratic side. I bet there are ultra pro-Israel people who were formerly Democrats who actually think this is a good idea, and will now start supporting Trump. Still, I think he's going to lose 90 MAGAs for every 10 Democrats he gains.
The Senate and the House need to do something for margins to matter though.
The whole reason they're not doing anything is that the democrats (who might do something) are in the minority in both the house and senate, so what they can do (without breaking rules and norms) is very limited. The Republicans either don't want to do something because they support what Trump is doing, or they're scared to go against him.
If you get a dozen Republicans who are willing to go against Trump, suddenly the anti-Trump side has a majority, which gives them a massive amount of power to do something.
It was 90%. Only 10% of Americans were capable of resisting the massive propaganda apparatus that manufactures consent at the start of every war of aggression. Vietnam was also very popular at the start.
But you are right that he's doing this without a strong justification. From what I've seen, mainstream media is still on his side, they love war, great for business. Whether enough Americans have learned anything from the disaster of the War on Terror to make any sort of lasting dent in the number capable of resisting propaganda remains to be seen, you'd think Vietnam would have but it's always "different this time," and people are frequently "anti-war, except the current one."
I don't think the media is necessarily "on his side". When the media sticks to just reporting the facts, people interpret it as the media taking the other side.
Also, his approval rating never got up to 90%. It was in the 80s in the days after 9/11 (which was sickening) but it dropped pretty quickly, and by the time the Iraq war began it was back down to almost 50%. It briefly went up after the war started, but then kept going down and down until he finally left office.
https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2008/12/18/bush-and-public-opinion/
Your source says a peak of 86%, Gallup got 90% but either way it was an overwhelming majority.
The media told all sorts of lies to justify the war in Iraq, more recently, the New York Times published a false story about Hamas committing mass rape, if you want to go further back they lied to get us into Vietnam, and in every case it takes time for the lies to be exposed and by the time they are, fewer people see the retractions and it's usually too late to do anything about it anyway. Even when they aren't lying, they're using biased language and framing to push their agenda, and their agenda is, as I said, always pro-war, because war sells papers and if they're hostile to the White House (especially with Trump in there) then they'll get press passes revoked and won't be privy to information they would otherwise receive. Never in my life have I seen widespread media condemnation of any military action (unless you count the withdrawal from Afghanistan), and I believe you'll see the same thing if you look in the past, in conflicts like Vietnam. When Trump launched an unprovoked missile strike on Syria, during his first term, these people jumped over each other to praise him, to say that "that was the moment he became presidential," even publications that had been very critical of him before.
None of the media people (just like none of the politicians) were ever held accountable in any way for lying the public into a war, which set a clear precedent that they can do so freely going forward. Worse yet, it's often the very same people in similar positions of power. If you think that they're trustworthy and not biased, then I've got a bridge to sell you.
A lie is something they were aware was not true and published it anyhow. What sources do you have that the media was publishing stories it knew weren't true about Iraq? What examples do you have?
What story are you talking about, and what specific allegations do you think it got wrong?
You're saying the media knowingly made up stories because they wanted to trick the US into going to war in Vietnam? What specific examples do you have of that? Again, if this is your claim, it isn't enough to show that they got some reports wrong. It's not even enough to show that they printed some things that in hindsight they should have known were wrong. Your bar is to prove that they knew ahead of time that they were publishing things they knew were untrue and did it for the express purpose of trying to get the US into war in Vietnam.
I see what you're saying here: if the media prints lies from a government it's not the media lying, it's the government. If Israel says Hamas beheaded 40 babies and that's found out to be a lie, it wasn't the media lying about Hamas beheading 40 babies and so the media is entirely innocent of printing the lies fed to it by a government like Israel.
Here's the thing: if a government lies all the fucking time and the media keeps printing what the government claims anyway, then that makes them complicit in spreading the government's lies. We all know Israel's government spreads lies, so printing the lies it spread about Hamas is just doing the government's work for them. The media doesn't get to wash its hands of the things it prints just because it puts "Israel says" before the headline.
If the government manages to fool the media, yeah. If the government says to the media "the truth is X, but we're going to pretend that it's Y, so you print Y, ok?" and then the media goes along with it, then you can blame the media. In many cases, the media isn't able to fact check the things the government tells them. But, relaying what the government is saying is still important. Similarly, even though the media can't independently fact check the numbers that the Gaza Health Ministry reports, it's still valuable to have those numbers released too.
If the media is lazy about their fact checking you can call them lazy, but you can't call them liars, because lying requires knowing the truth and intentionally saying something untrue.
If the government says "the truth is X" and then the media says "X is true" then sure, you're right. But, if the media says "the government said that the truth is X", then it's up to readers / viewers to understand that the media isn't endorsing what the government said as being true, the media is simply telling you what was said.
Why should it need to wash its hands? That is exactly what Israel said. Because Israel has a complete ban on reporters in Gaza, for example, there's no way to corroborate or refute what Israel said. It's newsworthy to repeat what Israel said, but you can't blame the media when someone reads that and assumes that the government is telling the truth. As you said yourself, the government lies all the time, so why would you assume that "the government said X happened" means that "X happened".
If there's no way to corroborate or refute what Israel said, don't print what Israel said. Lies aren't newsworthy, except as a way to report on the lies themselves for the purpose of debunking them.
Remember when Israel first started bombing hospitals and blamed Islamic Jihad for it? They still don't claim responsibility for Al-Ahli Arab Hospital, but after a year of targeting hospitals and doctors it's ridiculous to deny it at this point.
Yet there were few retractions or corrections. As far as CNN and The Guardian are concerned, Israel didn't bomb that hospital. What a joke.
I don't think people make that assumption anymore, but that's because people stopped trusting the media. They published and promoted so many government lies that they've destroyed their own credibility.
People expect the media to investigate government claims and to publish the truth, not just parrot the lies they're fed. When the media doesn't do that, when all the major news outlets become court stenographers, people lose faith in the media.
Maybe people are expecting too much, but that's what people have been taught to expect. They were taught that journalists find the truth and report on it. They're finding out that journalists basically just print what their sources say and they can't just trust things because they're in the news anymore.
And it's going to get worse forever.
Why? What they said is newsworthy.
"Israel bombed this building"
"Why?"
"Dunno, didn't ask."
Even if you don't believe the answer, getting an answer is still newsworthy. Everyone should be aware that it's not necessarily the truth, but it's newsworthy as the justification they're using. If it comes out later that the building was an orphanage, you can't use that to challenge the government's justification that it was a command and control center if you never got them on the record saying they bombed it because it was a command and control center.
They don't report Russia's claims this way. They don't report Iran's claims this way.
And people can see it, which is why they don't trust the media anymore.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russia-ukraine-war-1.6460410
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/zelenskiy-says-ukraine-developing-interceptor-drones-counter-russian-attacks-2025-06-20/
https://kyivindependent.com/russian-drone-and-missile-attack-killed-7-injured-dozens-across-ukraine-over-past-day/
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2025/6/23/live-iran-vows-to-respond-to-us-attacks-trump-hints-at-regime-change
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20250608-russia-says-pushing-offensive-into-ukraine-s-dnipropetrovsk-region
https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/watch/biden-claims-trump-is-exaggerating-about-the-situation-at-the-border-213854789562
They report on Russia and Iran's claims exactly the same way they report on anyone else's claims.
Do you think they're so incompetent as to leave evidence laying around that they had advance knowledge? I wonder, if that's the bar you set for US media, do you also set the bar there for, say, Chinese media? If Chinese state media publishes something that's untrue, would you dispute someone calling it a lie if you didn't have access to some official document openly confessing to advance knowledge? Even if such records did exist, it's not as if I, a private citizen, could get a warrant to raid their offices for it. You're setting the standard unreasonably high, you're just trying to shut down reasonable skepticism and legitimate criticism in favor of blind trust. I mean, what kind of idiot would write down "I know this story is false but I want you to publish it anyway," and then leave it lying around where someone could find it, when there's absolutely no reason to?
Here is an Intercept article about the fake news story published by the NYT to justify Israeli aggression in Gaza.
That's not what I said at all. The US government wanted to go to war with Vietnam, the media simply wanted to win favor with the government and sell papers.
Were you aware that, in the aftermath of the Kent State Massacre, the vast majority of Americans placed more blame on the students for getting shot than on the National Guard for shooting them? Were you aware that, leading up to the shooting, there were all kinds of fake news stories on TV about how, for example, the protesters were putting LSD into the water supply? Stories that they conveniently retracted, after the moment had passed and the chance for a backlash was gone?
Anyway, the fact that they lie frequently isn't even the main point. The main currency of propaganda is not lies, it's emphasis. Biased framing and leading language are perfectly capable of shaping public opinion towards their agenda. Historical events that would justify or explain hostile actions of other countries are very rarely deemed relevant, and the same with internal politics that might show that only certain factions supported it. Our own crimes and acts of aggression are downplayed or ignored, so that when the other side retaliates, it seems to come out of nowhere.
For example, the 1953 coup in Iran, which was conducted by the CIA and successfully covered up for decades, demonstrates that even if Iran had a peaceful, democratic government, it would still likely be subject to US aggression so long as they tried to assert control over their own oil. The breakdown of relations in the 1979 revolution occurred when the revolutionaries took hostages at the US embassy, but what provoked that action was the US granting refuge to the deposed shah - the very same man who they had previously installed as a dictator in 1953. I think both of those events are very important to understanding US-Iranian relations, but you won't hear the news mention them, the hostage crisis is always presented as this unprovoked act of aggression.
This is just basic media literacy, really. You should always be skeptical and aware of bias and conflicts of interests with anything you read. Unfortunately, there's a tendency some people have to put certain sources on a pedestal as if critical thinking and skepticism isn't necessary when reading them.
I'm still waiting for a single example of a lie. It's a very simple request, and if you can't find one, you claim that the media lies is wrong.
Ridiculous double standard. Has Putin ever lied, once in his life? Yes or no please, and be prepared to meet your own standard of evidence.
I don't know, but it definitely seems like it. OTOH, it seems like journalists really care about the truth and bend over backwards to fact check things.
So, are you admitting you can't actually find a single lie told by the press?
So, are you admitting you can't actually find a single lie told by Vladimir Putin?
Where are you getting this, "seems like" he lies and "seems like" journalists care about truth and fact checking? Exactly the same number of "lies" have been produced for each in this conversation. I mean, I did link to a fake news story from the NYT but that doesn't count because I didn't break into their offices and find a signed confession.
You set an impossibly high standard for proof in the one case, but "seems like" is enough in the other, you're operating off pure vibes, or more accurately, your own bias and preconceptions, with zero critical thought.
But sure, I stand corrected, they didn't "lie" in those cases (since basically nobody ever lies, by your absurd standard), they just published blatant falsehoods at just the right time to advance their interests, then suddenly realized their "mistakes" as soon as what they wanted to happen happened.
~~Jesus loves me~~ The media is reliable, this I know, for the ~~Bible~~ media tells me so. Blind faith rivaling any Bible-thumper.
I never made any claims about Putin. You, however, did make claims about the media. Back up your claims.
I have. I just can't meet an impossible standard of evidence that you're obviously selectively applying in order to exclude evidence that you want to pretend doesn't exist.
An impossible standard of evidence? You think proving someone lied is impossible? And yet, despite knowing you can't prove it, you want to throw around accusations that someone lied.
In that case, you're a liar. I don't need to prove it, because proving someone lied is impossible. I can just say you lied and then call it done.
And there's the double standard, plain as day. To call me a liar, you would need to prove not only that I said something false, but also that I had knowledge and intent that it was false. Short of a signed confession, you cannot call me a liar, because it's impossible for you to read my mind. Perhaps I thought there was proof when there wasn't. Isn't that what you're saying is true of the media, for example, with the fake news story the NYT put out? If anyone's a liar here, it's you, for accusing me of lying when you can't meet your own standard of evidence for making that claim.
There's no point in reasoning with you any more than there is in reasoning with any other religious fanatic operating on blind faith and refusing to apply reason, skepticism, and critical thinking. You've simply chosen a worse God to worship.
No, your new standard is "vibes". You have "vibes" that the media lies, so you get to call them liars. I'm appyling the same logic to what you say, liar.
No, I presented plenty of evidence. The problem is that you consider anything short of 100% to mean 0% (only when it comes to the media, ofc). Like, you're expecting me to be able to prove it in a court of law, but obviously there are a lot of things that are true where the evidence doesn't meet that standard. Even in a court setting, there are situations where they'd be concerned with standards like "more likely than not" or "reasonable cause to believe" rather than the standard you're applying of, "beyond any reasonable doubt," for example, if I shot someone in self defense, I wouldn't have to prove "beyond any reasonable doubt" that they were trying to kill me, only that I had probable cause to believe that was the case. "Beyond any reasonable doubt" is only the standard for a conviction because the state's monopoly on violence creates a special danger for abuse, and because the state has special abilities and privileges that allow it to conduct investigations, beyond what a private citizen could. To hold private citizens to that standard as a requirement for their beliefs to be considered rational is completely and utterly insane.
I definitely have good reason to believe that the media lies, and I have presented plenty of evidence and arguments to that effect. What I can't do is present evidence like a signed confession, which obviously would never exist regardless of whether they're lying or not. If you want to come back down to earth, stop having blind faith in the media, and actually engage with the evidence I have presented, then we can have a discussion. I highly doubt that you have any interest in doing so, in fact, I'm sure that if I had presented the signed confession you're demanding, you'd dismiss it, move the goalposts, and say it was just an isolated incident. Because you prefer the comfort of your faith over facing the reality the evidence shows.
You didn't present evidence of lying, you presented evidence that what they reported ended up being untrue. That's part of lying, and I don't dispute that part. The key part is that they knew that what they were reporting was untrue and they reported it anyway. You've presented no evidence to support that.
So, based on your rules, I can say you're a liar, because you've said some things that are not true, so I'm just going to assume that you know they're untrue and you're lying.
That's so obviously a double standard. Apply my rules to both cases, and the media is lying, which means I'm telling the truth. Apply your rules in both cases, and the media isn't lying, and neither am I. The only possible way you can get to me being a liar is if you apply a more favorable standard to the media, and switch to a more unfavorable standard with me. It's literally the textbook definition of a double standard.
Your bias is so obvious, and it's also really fucking stupid. These people are not your friends. You're no different from people who go around stanning billionaires, against all sense and reason.
And so are you. Those are your rules. You chose them, and so now they apply to you.
Apply my rules and we don't know if the media is lying, but there's no evidence to suggest that they knew that what they were saying is untrue, so it's unreasonable to say they're lying. As for you, who knows.
My bias? You're the guy who claims the media is lying without any evidence that they knew what they were saying was wrong, and you insist that you can still call that lying. But, when that same standard is applied to you, you want to reject it. You want to have your cake and eat it too, liar.
Again, you're literally flipping the standard halfway through your chain of "reasoning" 🤣 You don't get to apply your absurdly generous standard to them and my reasonable standard to me, that's not how logic works. You have to either be reasonable in both cases or be absurdly generous in both cases.
It doesn't really matter how much reason or evidence I present to you, can't argue with blind faith. It seems you're not only unwilling to reason and think critically, but unable to.
I weep for our education system. I suppose it's achieved it's objective of producing an unquestioningly loyal subject incapable of thinking for yourself or reasoning independently, following whatever your told. You must be an American, because only my countrymen are this confidently stupid.
It’s like 80% of all members of senate and house take aipac money on both sides
The dems have been supporting genocide for a long time. They've always been with Trump when it comes to anti-arab racism. Just look at their track record. Dems have constantly attacked Palestine, Syria, Iran, etc.
https://iranhumanrights.org/2013/04/crippling-sanctions/