this post was submitted on 20 Feb 2024
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but China is capitalist?????
Well I mean Germany did it too? Unless you're asserting that Germany wasn't a capitalist.
Nobody's capitalist, or communist for that matter. Both of these are mythical ideals that nobody has ever managed to implement at any large scale.
Sure, if you base your politics in idealism instead of materialism, which isn't a very useful lense for analyzing politics.
Exactly, though I would say there are some ideals that are more realistic than others. I think the whole debate between communism and capitalism is largely a distraction from actual tangible change that can be achieved and sustained.
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OK, what exception did I miss?
It's still capitalism when the government does things. It's not a mix of capitalism and socialism or whatever, it's just capitalism because what matters is who is in control. Under capitalism there is a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, the owners of capital. Hence, capital-ism.
Under capitalism, corporations take over the government and use it to their own ends. Under communism, the government takes over the corporations and uses them to it's own ends. Either outcome ends up looking pretty much the same.
What we have in the west, especially America, is far more than just "the government doing stuff". Government power and corporate power have become nearly indistinguishable. Corporations don't make long term investments of any kind without government grants to ensure consistent steady profits. We are constantly at war, and those wars consistently serve corporate interests.
On the other side, every large scale implementation of Communist ideals has resulted instead in state capitalism.
No, every implementation of a communist state (or even a vaguely leftish state) is ruthlessly hunted down and destroyed by capitalist powers - chiefly the United States.
So, no communist country is going to exist until all capitalist countries go away or are somehow prevented from interference? When do you see that happening?
A system that can't manage to sustain and defend it's own existence is simply not realistic, no matter how idealistic.
You first claimed that Communism never actually existed, now you are saying that they were crushed by capitalism. Which is it? Communism died in those countries as the countries were formed.
You are giving capitalist countries way too much credit, but that's a whole other web of individual discussions. Communism defeated itself, and what remained couldn't compete with (what passes for) free markets in Western democracies.
I literally didn't.
I support the actually existing Communist governments around the world: China, Cuba, Vietnam, etc.
Communism survives and China is eclipsing the US. And no, they're not capitalist. The Party is in control, politics is in command, they are advancing so incredibly quickly because they don't allow the market to run society or capital owners to be dictators.
And now Venezuela is being welcomed into the BRICS and we're seeing a pink tide all across Latin America. I'm quite optimistic we'll win this time.
By any means necessary.
You are literally correct. I got my threads mixed and I apologize. Still, claiming that...
... comes pretty darn close. Did America hunt down and destroy Communism in China, or is it still Communist?
Well, no they aren't. Since this discussion started with me saying that neither communism or capitalism can exist outside of ideological exorcises, you shouldn't feel the need to tell me that.
Xi Jinping's estimated net worth is $1.2b. Is that not capital? For comparison, Joe Biden's net worth is $10m, though some estimates go up to $40m. Which country is run by capital owners again? If you think that Xi Jinping only makes capital allocation decisions in the interests of the average Chinese citizen, then I have a great wall to sell you.
And here I was actually taking you seriously.
I guess threatening to eject the imperialists is
It's still controlled by a Communist Party and it's still building communism. The revolution isn't over yet. Actually existing socialism.
Literally no, capital is productive. Businesses, factories, warehouses, restaurants, farms, etc. Money is not capital in a Marxist sense, it's merely a means of exchange. I'm also skeptical he is actually a billionaire, that sounds like it's just some rough estimate made up by probusiness propaganda.
"But Biden isn't a businessman!" I hear you say, and no, he isn't. He also isn't in charge. His and his party's political donors are, and they own capital and they own Biden. He's just another one of their investments.
No, that is Leninism. Not communism. Those groups called themselves communist, communist party, communist Republic etc. But we're not communist in any significant sense beyond nominally.
Replace every time you mention communism with Leninism or ML and I largely agree however. Russia evolved into fascism. China is absolutely state capitalist. North Korea 100% a dictatorial nepo-state. But not because of communism.
Marxist-leninism is literally the base from which most communist theory exists. Most communists are some flavor or branch of ML, because it gets the goods.
You can't be a communist and reject all experiments at communism as "not real communism"
Yeah, after it was couped by US backed traitors and the US enforced fascism.
Why is their industrial output not falling as they're firmly in the middle income country bracket then?
(If you can't understand the contradiction you haven't read enough theory about imperialism and neo-imperialism)
Yeah, and they make all the grandpas push the one train whenever it breaks down. The rats eat the children and the children eat the rats. /s
Have you actually looked at the government structure of the DPRK? You seem to be parroting a lot of state department propaganda for someone speaking with authority on what "real" communism is.
I don't exactly disagree, but that hardly counters my assertion that ideological Communism isn't something that has ever been successfully implemented on a substantial scale.
In the end it's all about centralizes power, whether that is political, social, or financial. That is why I support left-libertarianism. Every intervention by the government in free markets should be considered primarily in light of how it impacts the balance of power. That includes a robust safety net and universal healthcare, as both shift power to individuals and away from wealth.
We also need to completely revisit the concept of corporations and rework them into something that better serves the interests of everyone.
Plenty are capitalist. True no one will ever achieve the capitalist ideal. Because capitalism amplifies and encourages the worst of human behavior. Without offering any controls for it. Capitalism is absurdist by it's very nature.
While it's true no nation has ever achieved ideological communism either. Thats because it requires post scarcity. Which strictly speaking we don't have yet. And directly requires us to address the worst of human nature. It simply isn't currently achievable. But there are plenty of things we could do to move towards it that we aren't and should be doing. But can't, in the United States for example. Because wealthy oligarchs and authoritarians have invested heavily in miseducation and propaganda.
I would argue that post scarcity is something that we could actually have today if it were a priority. Most of the work people do today is entirely unnecessary. What's left could mostly be automated if that were a priority. Instead, what we see is consumer demand expanding to demand more and more stuff, and the majority of the workforce being employed in scams to help their employer collect power coupons.
I disagree. But you aren't that wrong. We could claw back the theft of capitalism and absolutely provide a comfortable standard of living for almost everyone. But there are absolutely some big road blocks. Energy and food demand in particular. But we are rapidly approaching some significant milestones on those fronts. Cell cultures/lab grown meat, advancements in fusion. But again if we don't address the problem that is capitalism. Those things will be hamstrung and used to fleece regular people all the more.
I didn't say that we actually are post scarcity, only that we could be if that were society's priority. Take away all the useless work, and that doesn't leave a whole lot to require coercion. Most of our food production is already pretty much automated, and most of the rest would be if coercion was taken off the table.
I don't share your optimism on fusion, but that's not very relevant since there are other technologies that I see as long term solutions. We also waste tons of energy, for instance Bitcoin alone is estimated to account for 2% of US electricity use.
I don't think it says much for communism as an economic system if all the economic problems have to be resolved before it becomes possible.