this post was submitted on 30 Aug 2025
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“Debate solved”
Pandoras box opened they must mean.
If I replace the part of the ship with an identical one nothing about the function of the ship changes.
But words and sentences carry information and any change to it alters that information, even if it’s still about the same subject. The newer sentences may also be written by different people then the original sentences
2 texts from different authors covering the same real life event are considered different. Even if they are sold by the same store and got their titles mixed up.
On the other side you could define a Wikipedia article with its transformative nature over time as one of its main properties, in which case this is just a later stage of that same wiki article. Which does feel accurate.
So its not the same text but it is the same wiki article.
The ship is still the ship identified by the same name and repairs are normal part of ship maintenance. But we don't usually specify this transformative nature when we define a ship or anything else.
So is it solved?
Yes.
Same when a child grows up. Is it the same person? Any sane person would say yes. Anybody who just enjoys debating pointless things would open a Pandora's box.
I mean that's what the Socratic method is getting at - things that are "sane" "true" "known" "proven" in actuality are none of those things. It asks you to define where you draw the line.
Is it pointless to consider and debate the characteristics of "what makes a person to be the same person"? You seem to say, as long as it's the current lump of biomass has been formed by a past lump of biomass, it's the same person. Assume I cloned a person, is that the same person? Does a person become a different person when they replace a lot of organs? Or is it only the brain that is important?
Also: don't diminish people having fun over theoretical debates by calling them insane. Let people have fun.
Cloning is a special case because answering the question is actually necessary for practical purposes in the real world. Debating whether a child who grew up is a different person because all the cells in the body were replaced, or whether your contract on a dock is voided because you replaced all the boards on a ship one after the other, doesn't really have any effect on practical life.
I'm not saying anybody having fun theorizing these things is insane, because I agree it can be fun - I'm saying anybody doing it "seriously" would be, in my eyes.
I mean it could have impact on the real world, the same as seriously discussing "can we still do algebra with the imaginary result of taking the root of -1". Apparently that was purely theoretical nonsense until we noticed that that allows us to do some very cool stuff in the real world.
I'm not saying all hypotheticals are useless. This one of whether a ship is still the same in particular is, though (other than for fun). Imaginary numbers were discovered as a tool while solving mathematical problems, so I would not say they are the same.
If i deconstruct 60% of a ship. Leave the 40% idle while i use the 60% to elsewhere construct a full ship and then proceed to rebuild the 40% in an identical full ship.
Which ship should get the original name?
Whichever you want?
I was just thinking that a reasonable person wouldn't consider it the same article anymore. Subject is the same but the article has been completely changed
Thesus just needed version tracking
"It's not the same article because you're looking at version 2024-03-22-11-54-12-023a and I'm looking at version 2025-08-02-08-15-59-01b"
The real ship was the one we made along the way
*Wattpad creator breathes heavily*
With the old parts swapped out of the ship Theseus is currently using?
Apparently the important question is: how many ships of Theseus did we accidentally create?
And how many of them can we stuff into that big hotel?
If everyone in the hotel starts rebuilding their room, is it still the same hotel and does it still have the same capacity to hold guests?
This true? Cause I love this and it will embed into my brain for later regurgitation.
I think it's the same ship if "the same ship" means shape, style, performance, etc. it retains the same form but has been fully repaired
Kinda like how cars come off of the production line are all made out of different parts but are "the same car" and by extension when they're subsequently crashed and fully rebuilt by YouTube channels!
Edit: for context's sake, I think the article is the same as well. Different phrasing to get the same point across on the same page/url
is my car still my car if i plop a new drivetrain in it?
If it's the same model of drivetrain, like a replacement one, I'd say yes.
what if i'm putting an electric one in to comply with new emissions laws and get a break on tolls
Partially different car then.
how about if i'm adding pop up headlights and t-tops through which to better express my personality (pop up headlights and t-tops are cool)
Same deal, if the car had them before, it's mostly the same car. If it's a modification, it's a more different car.
What it comes down to, for me, is the difference between repairing/replacing and modifying. Keep doing the latter and you are definitely going to have a different car.
Pop ups and t-tops are very cool though.
Admittedly the car example isn't the best because of all the complexities lol, I would say even if you did an engine swap it's still the same car
With me, it's the body and frame that dictates the car. You buy the car, you can swap the engine and legally it stays the same car (you don't have to re-register it as a new car)
Fun fact: German actually has a distinction between these two meanings of the same. "Dasselbe Schiff" would be the ship itself, and no other ship, even if it is the same. "Das gleiche Schiff" is another ship that is the same.
It's an interesting example, it's not unheard of in rare old car circles to "restore" a car from a few parts, like literally starting with a fender and building an entirely new car from there.
The trojan horse is loaded onto the ship of theseus, and the whole thing launched into a black hole. After billions of years of evaporation, a bunch of greeks emerge from the black hole.
Tap for spoiler
Did you notice the bear ?
Its the UNN New-Theseus, a Theseus-class Battleship
the ship they built out of the Old Theseus's parts, the UNN-Former Theseus, also a Theseus-class Battleship
