Seems like there might be enough traction, so here we go!
Our first "book" shall be āThe Ones Who Walk Away From Omelasā by Ursula K LeGuin.
It is a short story that is readily available online. If you cannot purchase it, rent it, or find it online please let me know and I will provide more information on how to get it.
Trigger warnings: emotional abuse, grooming, and child abuse
I would like to include some discussion questions that are community specific, and not generic book club questions, so these will likely be questions I ask regarding every work, subject to change of course.
Some things to think about while reading:
- Do you think this work is told from a feminist perspective? Why?
- Do you think the authors gender or gender identity affected their choice of subject, writing style, or perspective character?
- Does the narrators gender or gender identity affect the work? If so, how?
- Did this work change your opinion on anything? If so, what and why?
I don't know if I'll start adding generic book club questions, but if you'd like more general discussion questions of the works going forward, please let me know and I can include some. There's just a lot of discussion available already for this specific piece and I don't want answers to common questions to overshadow more nuanced discussions that center women which is why we're all in this community. Also, this is not a homework assignment. You can choose to address any or none of the questions posed here, or talk about your general thoughts or whatever else. Please feel free to pose your own questions in the comments as well. These should serve as a handy springboard if needed, but not a mandatory outline.
Our first movie will be Kpop Demon Hunters. There were some other suggestions, but I wanted to keep it a little lighter considering this months book has some serious trigger warnings and I wanted people to be able to participate in at least one of the two, even if they would rather not engage in heavy topics. This is an animated movie available on Netflix. I know this is a little exclusionary, but there are some other ways to watch it as well.
Trigger warnings: animated violence/gore, discussion of demons and the afterlife
Same as above: I would like to include some discussion questions that are community specific, and not generic movie club questions, so these will likely be questions I ask regarding every work, subject to change of course.
Some things to think about while watching:
- Do you think this work is told from a feminist perspective? Why?
- Do you think the authors gender or gender identity affected their choice of subject, writing style, or perspective character?
- Does the narrators gender or gender identity affect the work? If so, how?
- Did this work change your opinion on anything? If so, what and why?
I don't know if I'll start adding generic questions, but if you'd like more general discussion questions of the works going forward, please let me know and I can include some. There's just a lot of discussion available already for this specific piece and I don't want answers to common questions to overshadow more nuanced discussions that center women which is why we're all in this community. Also, this is not a homework assignment. You can choose to address any or none of the questions posed here, or talk about your general thoughts or whatever else. Please feel free to pose your own questions in the comments as well. These should serve as a handy springboard if needed, but not a mandatory outline.
Comments are spoilers territory. If you want to use spoiler tags in the comments, please do, but it is not required. If you venture into the comments please keep in mind this is a discussion thread for media so there will likely be spoilers.
Going forward This is a community project. I would like to get input regarding written works and tv/movies that would be a good fit for this. I will leave a comment on this thread that you can respond to if you'd like to offer a suggestion. One suggestion per comment please. You can comment multiple times though. I'd like to make sure the selections are widely accessible, so please add that information if you know for sure something is in the public domain or available online, as that makes it easier to recommend. Please vote on the other comments you see there. I'd like to pair heavier topics in one media with lighter topics in the other, just in case you're wondering why a specific piece was not chosen. Things like language or availability may also affect the selection. I'm also open to changing or adding discussion questions.
Thank you all for your interest. Excited to hear your perspectives!
PS: Even if you have seen or read the media before, I would encourage a reread or rewatch to best participate in the discussion!
hm, I guess I feel maybe I failed to communicate well - I'm surprised your take away was that I didn't think it was feminist because of the emotions and sexualization š¤
To be fair, I did mention the way sometimes it felt like they leaned into gender stereotypes, but this was more to show how the show was a mix of breaking and re-affirming gender stereotypes ... They have the girls be warriors with swords, but then they are abs obsessed and crying incoherently - you have both stereotypical masculine traits and stereotypical feminine traits being embodied by the characters.
Regardless, I guess I didn't feel that it wasn't a feminist film because it wasn't absolute in its commitment to breaking gender stereotypes (I tend to be critical of media like this, as I mentioned - we should be able to celebrate femininity and also be feminist).
It certainly intersects, though - one could say this has features of a kind of post-feminist approach where the project isn't to just break stereotypes, but to do a bit of both. Maybe this is enough to qualify the film as feminist for most people (the fact that female characters were breaking gender stereotypes at all might qualify it for some), but I guess in my mind it takes a bit more than that to qualify as a "feminist film", but as I write this it just makes me realize my sensitivities and perceptions are obviously different than others - making me feel the label is relative and contextual - maybe conservative Christians I know would think the film was obviously woke and feminist, and I just wouldn't agree because I see all the ways it affirms status quo gender norms and how the feminist parts of the film are kept on a superficial level.
And you're right that a lot of this has to do with the fact that it's a film primarily for entertainment with a target audience that skews young, probably for teenagers and pre-teens. Still, I would point to works by Miyazaki for being earnestly feminist in their themes, despite also being targeted at a young audience, and also being "anime". Maybe part of the problem is that K-Pop Demon Hunters was commerce first and foremost, while films by Miyazaki are painstakingly handmade, slow and expensive to produce, and their stories show deeper commitments and values than just making money.
Otherwise I agree with your assessment that the characters attraction to boys was humanizing and also made the film appropriately appealing to girls and young women, and that this bolsters the film as something made for women - though I remain skeptical that this constitutes something being feminist I understand that most people would think it does.
I recently watched Lars von Trier's Nymphomaniac, a two-volume, five and a half hour film that as far as I can tell is one of the most feminist films I have ever seen - not that it isn't without its complications. Needless to say, I have been spending some time soaking in more mature films as well š Perhaps this only makes it worse when I watch K-Pop Demon Hunters, though I have to say I've also been watching a lot of Sex and the City recently, so it's not like I've only been watching serious material.
ah, I've already read "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas" - I have thoughts but maybe too many thoughts ... it also intersects with some of my own personal difficulties living in society generally, so maybe I just haven't engaged them because it's complicated, painful, and ... well, complicated.
In a nutshell, I can't always tell what the moral responsibility is for an individual in a society where so many problems are structural. I feel it is impossible to be a good person. I think The Good Place did a decent job summarizing the situation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lci6P1-jMV8
As an individual there are so many disturbing aspects to society I don't know what to do, it is so much worse unfortunately than a single child being tortured - and even that seems too much. These moral feelings well up inside of me and demand action and justice ... I went through years of intensifying radicalization, but to remain within the constraints of society, I had to find outlets that were deemed reasonable enough (i.e. I felt like going to Syria to disarm landmines, but people in my life would prefer I not take such extreme risks and make such extreme sacrifices). So I became a strict ethical vegan, and I stopped using my car, instead using a bicycle and cycling 16 km (one way) to school or work despite a lack of bicycle lanes, safe infrastructure, and even regular and overt hostility from motorists.
For me, refusing to buy meat or bicycle were almost pointless personal sacrifices - it was something I could do, but relative to the size of the problems it did nothing to ease my guilt. I festered by starting a mealworm farm to convert Styrofoam waste that my household produced into a biodegradable waste product, I obsessively recycled, I scrupulously sourced as much food and household goods as I could from bulk bins with reusable containers, I composted all organic waste I produced, and so on. None of this even remotely helped me feel relief, I was reading history books about Latin America and learning how the U.S. tortured and murdered so many people, I visited places in central America and saw the bullet holes and the poverty for myself.
So to walk away from Omelas really would have probably meant death for me, or at least a life where my spouse would not be able to follow, where my family and loved ones would worry about me, etc.
What it would take for me to feel like I was doing enough for the metaphorical tortured children of the world are things that I never felt I could do within the constraints of my life.
A breaking point came after I was hit by a car for a second time, and my spouse had to leave their job and take me to the emergency room ... My attempt to be a good person was making me an obsessive, miserable burden on the people in my life who loved me.
I spent months basically bedridden, unable to work in any capacity - and I spent that time on my mental health, and that got me to a place where eventually I started to realize being a good person required I take care of myself and attend to the people directly in my life, and not just focus on the ways my life intersected with big social problems. I eventually relaxed in every way, I let some nuance in and recognize now that yes, I am part of a deeply immoral system - but I didn't choose this system, and I'm doing what I can to change it and be a good person, the buck does not stop with me and I can't solve these problems myself.
I guess I came to terms with the torture, now I just accept it. It still bothers me, but it is no longer a fire that consumes me. I'm a much happier, safer person now - I would like to think I'm a better person now, too.
Would love to walk away someday still, maybe if people that love me die or are no longer in my life and I am left unburdened by social relationships, I could feel free to live life in a way that is more compatible with my values. Until then, I'll try to be a good person relative to my circumstances.
It was likely an issue on my end interpreting. I took the stereotype thing as a critique on the concept of the film being feminist, which I should not have done considering your recent comment. For what it's worth, I think having some stereotype conformity and nonconformity makes the characters more realistic to me, but I can see how it can seem more like they're just a madlibs of stereotypes than real people to others.
I totally agree with your idea that it likely depends on who is talking about it. Now that you bring this up I feel like I need to add context to my statement. I think you are right to say it's not a "feminist" film. I think it qualifies as a "feminist kids movie" because my personal bar for feminism in children's media is quite low, but now that I think more about it, it really needs that qualifier "for a children's movie". I appreciate you adding that perspective. Using Miyazaki as a standard is so smart. Those works are definitely thoughtful explorations of characters that feel earnest in a way that defies framing as anything but honest. I am not sure how much commercialization affected the story as much as just the people writing it, but there's definitely an element of high tempo frantic excitement that is common in a lot of more commercial works whereas Miyazaki definitely wants you to sit with his characters. I went on a Lars von Treir kick years ago and came away from those films with a completely opposite perspective! Lol. I will have to watch them again and get back to you if my feelings have changed since.
Totally valid reasoning, not that you needed me to say that. The good place is an absolute gem. The only show I've rewatched in its entirety.
That resonates so deeply with me and likely with so many others here. Very well put.
Wow. I was addressing your comment as I was reading it and then I got to the remainder and quite frankly I don't know how to respond. The lengths you went through seem so profound. I'm sorry that the world is the way it is and has caused so much hurt in your life and the lives of so many and that it will likely continue to do so. For what it's worth, I think settling on a healthy acknowledgement of the issues and some personal responsibility, without allowing it to consume you is the best way to go about it. The line is different for everyone, but it seems like you have found or are finding yours and that's so important. I really respect your ability to evolve and grow to be better for those in your life and around the world. I really believe that if enough of us had that mindset real change could happen, and all we have to do as individuals is to embody that and demonstrate it for others. Thank you for that reminder.