Realism : historymemes

[–] XM34@feddit.org 62 points 4 days ago (2 children)

I hate that trend, but the reverse is sometimes even more infuriating. No, medieval peasants didn't look like dirty, sickness ridden pigs covered in mud and horseshit!

They looked lile normal people without makeup. If they got dirt on their skin, they cleaned it up and despite not taking baths and showers all the time most people had a daily cleaning routine where they would comb their hair, clean themselves with cold water and a cloth and just generally take care of themselves. Rotten teeth did exist, but unless removed, they would often lead to death. So people did their best to avoid having them.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 35 points 4 days ago (3 children)

They looked lile normal people without makeup. If they got dirt on their skin, they cleaned it up and despite not taking baths and showers all the time most people had a daily cleaning routine where they would comb their hair, clean themselves with cold water and a cloth and just generally take care of themselves.

Bruh, the Norse are condemned by English chroniclers for having the lewdness and vanity to comb their hair regularly and bathe once a week; something which was regarded as making them appealing even to noblewomen.

Much of Medieval Europe was in a pretty degraded state.

[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 19 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

Yeah, they overcorrected from "all historic people were gorgeous and healthy unless the opposite serves the story" all the way to "even the huddled masses were fastidious about personal hygiene before the very concept was widely known" 😄

[–] XM34@feddit.org 5 points 4 days ago

Again difference between "cleaning" and "bathing" and the difference in the combing is that the norseMEN were combing their hair. Combing is absolutely unnecessary when you have short hair and no beard, which was the style for most central European peasants, but not the style of the norsemen. So yes, peasant women did absolutely conb their long hair, peasant men not so much. Which was the perfect source for idiotic bias that chroniclers needed to condemn the invading norsemen.

[–] Akasazh@feddit.nl 5 points 4 days ago

Chroniclers writings cannot be taken at face value entirely. Not saying it's entirely false, however it cannot be taken as generalization of medieval culture.

[–] Saleh@feddit.org 3 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Also people outside of certain trades werent exposed to a myriad of toxic chemicals.

[–] Potatar@lemmy.world 3 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

People forget that often. Sometimes I wash my hands not because of microbes, but because even my own cells wouldn’t survive what’s on them.

[–] TammyTobacco@sh.itjust.works 23 points 4 days ago (2 children)

Eyebrows are the thing that get me. Someone from the 1700's with the most perfectly manicured eyebrows.

[–] shalafi@lemmy.world 6 points 4 days ago

They had tweezers in ancient Rome.

[–] LadyButterfly@piefed.blahaj.zone 6 points 4 days ago

Ha! So true

[–] fckreddit@lemmy.ml 22 points 4 days ago (2 children)

This always bothered the hell out of me. Why do they look like they are elves from middle earth, except they are wearing somewhat ragged clothes?

[–] CosmoNova@lemmy.world 11 points 4 days ago (3 children)

Probably because they didn‘t wash their faces with hot water and soap all the time but instead took sweat baths and washed them with cold water to keep the protective layer. They also had better teeth than most of us these days by the way.

[–] blarghly@lemmy.world 9 points 4 days ago (2 children)

Are you high? No! It's because you aren't seeing actual medieval people on tv. You are seeing an actor portraying a medieval person for a TV show. And it is well known in show business that no one wants to watch a TV show about ugly people. Plagues, stds, and pests like fleas and lice swept through ancient cities. Everyone drank beer instead of water because the water was so polluted that without the disinfecting effects of alcohol, you would die if you drank it. It wasn't uncommon to suffer malnutrition in times of famine or war. But you think that everyone had beautiful, flawless skin...?

[–] XM34@feddit.org 14 points 4 days ago (1 children)

The thing is, they won't have perfect skin, but most people wouldn't be ugly or look completely unkept. Medieval peasants knew about hygiene as well. If you want to know what medieval peasants probably looked like, just watch a documentary about tiny villages deep inside eastern Europe or Russia. You can tell tha a lot of the people living there don't wear makeup or use a lot of skincare products, but they still look good and well kept. They look the way healthy and normal people look like.

[–] blarghly@lemmy.world 0 points 4 days ago

I'm sure they had some grooming standards. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about how fictional representations of medieval peasants have perfect skin. And the very obvious reason for this is that they are fictional.

[–] CosmoNova@lemmy.world 2 points 4 days ago

The problem is I genuinely don‘t know if you‘re being sarcastic or not because people throw around these exact false claims all the time but there are so many of them that I think you must be sarcastic?

[–] fckreddit@lemmy.ml 8 points 4 days ago

No sodas or candies then.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 3 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

They also had better teeth than most of us these days by the way.

Similarly bad teeth (with fewer options for treatment and management, like effective fillings), different reasons. Rot was rarer (though still widespread, as in the modern day, something like 50% vs. 90%) because peasants ate few sweet foods; abrasion was universal and often so severe that it led to tooth loss entirely - 'funny' enough, this abrasion also reduced the number of cavities which still occurred despite the low-sweets diet, since cavities were literally worn away.

[–] I_Has_A_Hat@lemmy.world 1 points 4 days ago

It could be worse, they could forget about the ragged clothes as well. Wheel of Time did that, and every character looked like they walked straight out of a Nordstrom's.

[–] PaulBunyan@lemmy.world 12 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Although Norsemen (Vikingane) is satire, I found the slaves’s makeup to be pretty well done. Chapped lips and other dirty features.

[–] Echolynx@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 day ago

Norsemen is just such a great show all around.

[–] cuerdo@lemmy.world 8 points 4 days ago

they have soft skin because the are nine

[–] Zephorah@discuss.online 2 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Odds are good they’d have missing and half rotted teeth too.

[–] AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world 8 points 4 days ago (3 children)

They drank very little soda back then.

A lot of people had decent teeth (beyond the extra wear caused by the stone grinding of the flour adding stone powder to bread).

[–] Zephorah@discuss.online 4 points 4 days ago

It’s not about soda. It’s about the lack of everything else.

[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 4 days ago

They drank very little soda back then.

Citation needed

[–] IAmNorRealTakeYourMeds@lemmy.world 1 points 4 days ago

didn't they drink a lot of beer instead?

[–] HenriVolney@sh.itjust.works 1 points 4 days ago

Monthy Pithons nailed it in Sacred Graal

[–] Acinonyx@lemmy.sdf.org -1 points 4 days ago (2 children)

I agree, and there are other historical inaccuracies as well, which no one seems to talk about, for example how they are overproportionally colored/PoC. one could suspect hypocrisy

[–] brucethemoose@lemmy.world 4 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

Not nearly as much.

From what I’ve seen, settings are either fantasy/fiction, or they handle the local mix of ethnicities pretty well.

As I brought up in the last thread, KCD2 is a great example, shining on the “cultural mix” part yet having quite unblemished women for some reason. To be fair, many men are conspicuously attractive too.

[–] Acinonyx@lemmy.sdf.org -3 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (2 children)

From what I’ve seen, settings are either fantasy/fiction

you can't put everything you want into a setting just because it's fantasy/fictional. you wouldn't want a BMW in your medieval setting just because it's fantasy, it's the same with an overrepresentation of PoC.

or they handle the local mix of ethnicities pretty well.

that's almost never the case. I don't know about KCD2, but Witcher 3 did a good job. in the wheel of time (the show) for example, every "culture" looks the same and the worldbuilding is not believable, and that's the case for most modern media

[–] brucethemoose@lemmy.world 13 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

you can’t put everything you want into a setting just because it’s fantasy/fictional.

Yes, you can. That is literally the idea.

But it has to be believable and fleshed out. I never read the WoT book, but the TV show I half finished did feel like a mess, heh, though I didn't stop midway because of cultural weirdness. It just felt... boring, and the world wasn't interesting.

Witcher is largely drawn from celtic lore, and in the world it sets up, people being kinda pastey faced makes sense. But I brought up KCD2 because it's mostly white Europeans is a more grounded and historical (Germanic?) region, yet there are still distinct local subcultures and distinct travelers, like gypsies and that turkish guy. There is plenty of PoC. You should play KCD2 if you haven't already, as if you're going for 'authentic medieval,' no other game comes close.

...On the other hand, look at the setting of Avatar: The Last Airbender or the Kyoshi Novels. It's transitioning out of middle-ages tech and culture, yet has a mash of different skin tones and inspirations. Chinese, Japanese, Southern US, Inuit, Mesoamerican, Indian, you name it. And it works perfectly, because they build those people up and flesh them out.

In other words, authenticity doesn't matter in fiction/fantasy because you're building the world. The reason for a mix of 'PoC' is whatever one makes.

[–] Acinonyx@lemmy.sdf.org 0 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

Yes, you can. That is literally the idea.

fair enough. but that's most of the time not compatible with "it has to be believable and fleshed out". you can add PoC, but they should have their own destinct cultures, like GoT did with the Dorne or the magical city in Essos; or the Ophiri in Witcher 3. the people of Dorne were all a homogenous group of people, as is to be expected in a medieval setting where traveling is hard, the same with the Ophiri. if half of the population of Dorne was white, it'd be odd.

It just felt... boring, and the world wasn't interesting.

like I said, that's because of the worldbuiling, every group of people looked the same (except for the costumes, which were pretty bad), every architectural style looked the same, there were no distinct culural differences. the whole world is one homogenous blob. just compare it to GoT

ATLA is another great example of diversity done right. every faction has their own unique identifiers, which make sense from a geographical point of view

The reason for a mix of 'PoC' is whatever one makes.

yes, diversity has to be done right, like in GoT or ATLA. just throwing a bunch of PoC into a random setting and calling it a day doesn't cut it, but that's exactly what is done most of the time and if you critisize it, you're racist

I'll eventually play KCD2 if I find the time

[–] brucethemoose@lemmy.world 1 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

I’ll eventually play KCD2 if I find the time

Fair warning, it is hardcore and time intense, heh, but also an incredible labor of love. It's so medieval it hurts.

just throwing a bunch of PoC into a random setting and calling it a day doesn’t cut it

I guess this is the hair I'm trying to split. It's not "PoC" that's jarring for me, I don't like that term at all. People don't have to be white, or any skin tone; that's just skin deep, and that's never been a factor turning me away from media. They can be mixed even if cultures are distinct.

But just... blah worldbuilding is boring. And yeah, sometimes bad shows get some token diversity cast that's frankly insulting to said cast. But that feels like a symptom of deeper problems, not something specifically turning me away.

Otherwise I largely agree.

[–] Acinonyx@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 4 days ago

that's just skin deep, and that's never been a factor turning me away from media. They can be mixed even if cultures are distinct.

yes, but I think it's the most obvious and consistant problem for most shows. another one for example is in the case of WoT the lack of architectural styles in different culutres.

But that feels like a symptom of deeper problems

yeah I agree

[–] imsufferableninja@sh.itjust.works 3 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

I only made it through the first like 3 episodes of the WoT show, and it was the worst for that. Not surprised to hear it didn't get better

[–] brucethemoose@lemmy.world 2 points 4 days ago

Same.

[–] LadyButterfly@piefed.blahaj.zone 0 points 4 days ago

Yep!!!

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